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Re: spinal decompression?
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 3:40:00 AM
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dosrinc
Posts: 335
Joined: December 9, 2004
From: Bonita Springs
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I know that H. Duane Saunders himself wrote a letter to the editor of advance magazine after they wrote an article about the Vax-D, in his letter, Saunders discussed his battles with the FDA regarding use of the terms "decompression" and "revolutionary", ect. Don't remember exactly as it was a couple of years ago but his basic response was this (Vax-D) is no different than the mechanical traction that has been utilized for years and it would be defrauding the public to say otherwise. Ill see if I can pull up the original letter, I think I saved it somewhere.
Rick
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 5:40:00 AM
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dust
Posts: 6
Joined: September 7, 2005
Status: offline
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Hi Risk,
Why then did mechanical traction not help me when this does?
I have tried the inversion tables at home as well.
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 6:43:00 AM
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OAK
Posts: 184
Joined: September 1, 2003
Status: offline
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dust,
Do you have a vested interest in the DRX 9000 Decompression unit? If not why were you looking at this message board?
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 8:03:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
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Dust-
Thanks for posting, and we're glad you're feeling better.
The thing about a single case (your case for example) is that we cannot make any certain statements about what did and did not help you. You may simply be experiencing spontaneous resolution of your problems, which is coinciding with the treatment. This may be a form of placebo response as well. There are numerous possibilities.
I have not heard of the unit you describe, but I am glad you opted for the non-surgical route. As you may know, the outcomes data for surgery for your problem is not different than rehabilitation at one year. So I think you are doing the right thing to go the non-surgical route.
I wonder what kind of research exists on this unit, and how it is different (or how it claims to be different) than standard mechanical traction or the Cox method.
You should also be aware that there is stronger evidence in the medical research literature for a supervised muscle stabilization program with a Physical Therapist than there is for traction of any kind.
To find a Physical Therapist in your local area, go to [URL=http://www.apta.org]www.apta.org[/URL] and click on the "Find a PT" link at the top of the page.
I'm glad you're doing so much better, and thanks again for sharing with us.
Good luck.
Jason.
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 12:43:00 PM
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dust
Posts: 6
Joined: September 7, 2005
Status: offline
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I have had this problem for 4 years,, and evidence on the MRI is:
L5 S1:
broad central to left paracentral disc herniation.Moderate to severe degeneration of intervertebral disc and subtle retrolisthesis of L5S1.
End plate osteophytes are assymmetric on the left.
Greater effacement of left lateral ecess compared to the right.
Foraminal narrowing id moderate on the left and mild on the right.
L4-5 minimal spinal canal stenosis
Now really, do you believe that this is "spontaneos resolution"
that JUST happens to coincide with this Tx?
If so, then God really did perform a miracle healing on me.That is the only other explaination.
dust
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 12:48:00 PM
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dust
Posts: 6
Joined: September 7, 2005
Status: offline
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OAK:
no I have no vested interest in terest in DRX 9000.
I found this board and bookmarked it many months ago , I was probably researching about different back Tx.
I was looking thru my marks and found it and thought I would post my experience.
Was that not an appropriate thing to do?
If this is not for general public, please accept my apologies.
I am just sharing my expereince with theTx modality, and I am sure that there are many open minded patients and professionals who would like any new information to help themselves as well as patients.
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 1:18:00 PM
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OAK
Posts: 184
Joined: September 1, 2003
Status: offline
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"OAK:
no I have no vested interest in terest in DRX 9000.
I found this board and bookmarked it many months ago , I was probably researching about different back Tx.
I was looking thru my marks and found it and thought I would post my experience.
Was that not an appropriate thing to do?
If this is not for general public, please accept my apologies.
I am just sharing my expereince with theTx modality, and I am sure that there are many open minded patients and professionals who would like any new information to help themselves as well as patients."
Your story doesn't sound believable. If I'm wrong, which I hope I am, I appologize.
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 3:06:00 PM
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dust
Posts: 6
Joined: September 7, 2005
Status: offline
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Oak, your apology is accepted. I also post on Healthboards.com"
I have suffered with the ddd, sciatica plus for years until it got so bad and I had a terrible experience of tingling starting at my rt toes and working up to my waist four years ago.
That incident followed a bout of chiro b/c I was doing heavy lifting,, just one day I reached for an empty box and wham,, to the floor bent over.
months of chiro did no good . I was told prob mild ms by a neuro, one ortho was on track with mechanical probs then another spine specialist said he could clearly see the prob. another couldnt wait to fuse me while another wanted the ADR.
I also have posted /read neuromancer board, and sev other back boards.
Why is it so hard to believe
my post?
I have spent 4.5 years of seaching and reading about back problems and remedies with stretching, posture, inversion, different docs.
You may be interested in Dr Jho and his innovative nonfusion techniques.
Just put in Dr Jho on google or your choice- you want unbelievable? try that. But it sounds like something I will try if the DRX9000 fails me!
I am excited to see my post Tx xray compared to my pre Tx image.
I had my doubts about this Tx as well.
PLus the doc offers that if this is not working for you by end of 7th Tx, no charge to you.
I paid on the 4th Tx.
Since 6-2001, about every 4 months I would have a very bad week with more intense pain and tingling. But , it would resolve to a lesser pain if I did more resting and stretching, no lifting , walking sitting more than 10 min.
Since father day this year I could not ditch the pain- constanttingling burning shooting.
Dont dicount this Tx modality.
I may change my mind later, but this is more 'normal' since 4 years ago.
God Bless
I dont understand - was my post that threatening or what?
Wouldnt you be wanting to share something that could help people in pain?
The back board on healthboards.com is a good place to learn as well.
Lots of shared experiences.
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 3:41:00 PM
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OAK
Posts: 184
Joined: September 1, 2003
Status: offline
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"Oak, your apology is accepted. I also post on Healthboards.com"
I have suffered with the ddd, sciatica plus for years until it got so bad and I had a terrible experience of tingling starting at my rt toes and working up to my waist four years ago.
That incident followed a bout of chiro b/c I was doing heavy lifting,, just one day I reached for an empty box and wham,, to the floor bent over.
months of chiro did no good . I was told prob mild ms by a neuro, one ortho was on track with mechanical probs then another spine specialist said he could clearly see the prob. another couldnt wait to fuse me while another wanted the ADR.
I also have posted /read neuromancer board, and sev other back boards.
Why is it so hard to believe
my post?
I have spent 4.5 years of seaching and reading about back problems and remedies with stretching, posture, inversion, different docs.
You may be interested in Dr Jho and his innovative nonfusion techniques.
Just put in Dr Jho on google or your choice- you want unbelievable? try that. But it sounds like something I will try if the DRX9000 fails me!
I am excited to see my post Tx xray compared to my pre Tx image.
I had my doubts about this Tx as well.
PLus the doc offers that if this is not working for you by end of 7th Tx, no charge to you.
I paid on the 4th Tx.
Since 6-2001, about every 4 months I would have a very bad week with more intense pain and tingling. But , it would resolve to a lesser pain if I did more resting and stretching, no lifting , walking sitting more than 10 min.
Since father day this year I could not ditch the pain- constanttingling burning shooting.
Dont dicount this Tx modality.
I may change my mind later, but this is more 'normal' since 4 years ago.
God Bless
I dont understand - was my post that threatening or what?
Wouldnt you be wanting to share something that could help people in pain?
The back board on healthboards.com is a good place to learn as well.
Lots of shared experiences."
Thanks for clearing that up dust. Now I know you're a fake.
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 3:54:00 PM
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dust
Posts: 6
Joined: September 7, 2005
Status: offline
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I am a fake 'what?'
Really dont undertand what you are talking about,are you having a bad day in general or did someone offend you this week?
I wish my problem WAS fake then I would not have spent so much in mRI and doctor visits, trying to at least find two professional opinions that were congruent.I do know that DRX 9000 Tx has helped.
And yes I tried PT in FB va with ms ehman.
I hope you have a better day .
If you are a health care professional( I am a retired one) I do hope and pray that you have a bit more compassion and manners in that setting than you do here.You are in my prayers.
God Bless
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 9, 2005 9:51:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
Status: offline
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I have to wonder what you are on about also OAK, just because someone comes on with a good experience with a treatment that you don't believe is helpful doesn't mean that person is lying.
I know several people who have experienced relief using VAX-D. I don't believe that that is particularly impressive since dozens of treatment options have provided some people relief. The question is does this one show statistically signifanct efficacy, and I think the answer is no.
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 10, 2005 3:44:00 AM
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David Adamczyk
Posts: 305
Joined: March 14, 1999
From: Cleveland
Status: offline
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Dust,
What is your professional degree?
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 11, 2005 7:05:00 AM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
Status: offline
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With some of the decompressive therapies I have a hunch that the difference may include two factors: first, the patient is supine and relaxed, taking out the resistance of the lumbar paraspinals, and second the angle of the traction pull is a little more logical relative to the segments being decompressed.
This in my view is a step forward in the decompression arena, as compared to the belt and pull technique of Saunders.
Just a hunch. I'm interested in this.
_____________________________
Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 11, 2005 7:16:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: online
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Just curious Greg, how do you identify and eliminate the possibility of skin drag (that is being created by the traction you are attempting to target to the spine) as a confounding factor in your reasoning process? OK, not just you Greg; anyone who thinks mechanical or manual traction is being applied to the actual spine, and is actually lengthening it, how do you eliminate skin drag as a possible confounding factor as far as pain relief is concerned?
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 11, 2005 7:47:00 AM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
Status: offline
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Well to be honest Diane, I don't. I think you are far ahead of me in this area. There is undoubtedly skin drag, which is to some extent mitigated by the articulating table, and having owned one of these tables I can say with some confidence that the skin drag is limited, but not completely eliminated.
Therefore I cannot rule out some limited neurofacilitation and/or inhibition secondary to table-skin friction.
_____________________________
Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 11, 2005 7:52:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: online
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Thank you Greg.
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 11, 2005 11:21:00 AM
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Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
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Couldn't you just apply the skin drag then without the traction and see if the results are the same?
If they are, then no need for traction, but if they aren't, then you could reasonably assume that it is the traction that is doing something.
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 11, 2005 11:27:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: online
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Randy, nice concept! And so much cheaper, not having to buy all that pricey equipment!
:) ,
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 11, 2005 1:44:00 PM
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nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
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I may be out of date here, but isn't it true that a force of about 250kg is required for any degree of separation of bony segments and 'lengthening' of ligaments?
Unless that level of force is used, then the skin and subdermal tissues are looking like the primary players.
Nari
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Re: spinal decompression? - September 11, 2005 2:30:00 PM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
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Nari I don't know the kg required but that number sounds very counterintuitive to me. Just lay on your back and have someone pull your legs. You'll feel the movement, general as it will be. Apply the same force using a certain vector, over a given time, to a relaxed back, and I think it can be done.
_____________________________
Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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