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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 17, 2005 10:41:00 PM
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TLB
Posts: 346
Joined: September 13, 2002
From: Arizona
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Please Enlighten Us. Both of you!
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Todd
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 17, 2005 11:06:00 PM
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nari
Posts: 1568
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From: Australia
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Todd
I cannot speak for what is going on in the USA, only from my point of view of what is happening in this country. I am not aware of any angst here towards chiropractors,
We do not own any technique; in fact physiotherapy 'borrowed' lots of stuff from osteopaths; but, be it muscle energy or manips or TA retraining or whatever - we do not 'own' them.
Chiros have been taught electrotherapy for years, and exercises etc.
I also cannot predict what will happen in the future. The consumer has a choice (well, most have) between PT and chiro, and we as PTs need to deliver the goods in the best way we can.
nari
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 18, 2005 6:26:00 AM
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jma
Posts: 2312
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From: NY
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January,
What happens to DO's and Chiro's who are "caught" practicing illegal medicine? Do they get slapped with a financial penalty or other means of discipline? We hear of a things here in the states but rarely do I hear of anything abroad.
JMA
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 18, 2005 7:00:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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From: USA
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Todd-
Can you be more specific about the question you want me to answer? I think i missed it...
Thanks, "the chiro friendly Silvernail"
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 18, 2005 8:00:00 AM
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january
Posts: 70
Joined: January 3, 2005
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JMA,
I gave the official position of the laws of health systems.
Since 3/5 years Osteopathy is taught in some Medicine universities for Gps and Physicians. PTs may learn it also but have not legally the right to apply their knowledge.
The number of prosecutions decreased these last years (around 10/year). It is often a “reprimand” with some financial compensation for Medicine organisations. Jail is extremely rare. You must not forget that on one side the government want the “illegal” money by true legal taxes and in the other hand want to offer an “alternative” for patients.
Now, osteopaths are “still”, they are “recognized” as complementary/alternative medicine (some insurances began to reimburse their fees).
Chiropractic is simply anecdotal in our health system so...
But the amalgam between chiropractic and osteopathy is certainly the reason why it doesn't “work” in France as in the US.
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 18, 2005 11:12:00 AM
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jma
Posts: 2312
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From: NY
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Thanks for the info January.
JDMBBuilder, how did the practical go?
JMA
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 18, 2005 1:38:00 PM
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JDMBBuilder
Posts: 49
Joined: December 16, 2004
From: Long Island
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the practical was ok...
the cards i got was "gap R L4/5 facet" and "perform a standing flexion test for the R IS joint". I got a 90 on the first one because I gapped the L facet...I forgot the type 1 neutral mechanics of the lumbar spine because of nervousness and lack of sleep!!! I got a 100 on the second card...overall 95, so I'm happy..
JMA or anyone on this board...does anyone know of any good manual therapy clinics in the nassau county area? I'm looking for a PT aide job for the summer...I wouldn't mind working for free if i recieved a good learning experience (free labor...how can u pass this up, hehe)
Jason silversnail..a DC was a teacher at your PT school? thats interesting..did he teach hvla, manual, etc.?
_____________________________
"Anyone can throw you on a "state of the art" machine and call it physical therapy. The only high-tech equipment I need are my brain and two hands..." -JSDPT
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 18, 2005 2:52:00 PM
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jma
Posts: 2312
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From: NY
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Hello,
Even though I am not from LI, I was able to find three positions from Newsday that may interest you.
One person also comes to mind, Jim Macaluso (I think thats his last name. He was a lab assistant in the manual therapy classes when I was there. I don't know if he is still assisting with the labs now. He is an OCS and you can learn a lot from him. If he is no longer there, ask Dr. Makofsky for his contact info.
1) PHYSICAL THERAPY AIDE & PHYSICAL THERAPIST for busy orthopedic ofc. PT positions avail. Mineola area. Fax resume: 516-742-0043
2)PHYSICAL THERAPIST & PT AIDE For a Highly Manual Therapy based Great Neck PT owned practice. Excel oppty. Fax resume 516-466-7723
3) PHYSICAL THERAPY ASST & AIDES Busy outpatient rehab ofc. FT/PT, Mineola. Fax 516-877-0511
I'm not sure if they are still available but they have not been removed from the job listing I found online.
However, a better way is to go to the PT office, they should have some sort of listing of jobs. Before I graduated, they had a binder where faxes came in for jobs for PT's, including aides. Find out from the secretary if it still gets updated. Sometimes, they used to post it. Word of advice, the early bird gets the worm.
JMA
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 18, 2005 7:46:00 PM
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TLB
Posts: 346
Joined: September 13, 2002
From: Arizona
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Nari,
Sorry I just watched Kansas getted shocked by
Bucknell and have been away from my computer while in OKC. I here you when you say we don't own any technique and I agree, but the jist of this thread isn't that we own techniques it's Chiro's trying to limit the techniques that you can use. In this case it happens to be manipulation, in another it could be mobilization or Muscle Energy. To make an analogy it would be like a massage therapist sueing you for performing STM. You are correct no one owns them but this thread is about another association limiting the tools in your toolbox.
Todd
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Todd
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 18, 2005 11:33:00 PM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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TLB-
>>> ...."it's Chiro's trying to limit the techniques that you can use. In this case it happens to be manipulation,...."<<<
Manipulation is not in PT scope of practice in Arkansas. So, a PT performing manipulation is illegal in Arkansas. If you want that changed, you need to change Arkansas law. Arkansas law is limiting the techniques that you can use.
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 4:09:00 AM
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TLB
Posts: 346
Joined: September 13, 2002
From: Arizona
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Jeep,
If that's the case then why is the APTA and AR PTA standing with this guy and not jerking his license? Seems to me if he did something outside the bylaws of the AR PTA he would have bigger problems that the Chiro Association. He states,
"This limitation of our scope of practice is obviously the Chiropractic Board’s goal with this decision, because they reported to the Federation of Chiropractic Licensing Boards that their number one achievement in 2002 was fining me, as a physical therapist, $10,000 for practicing chiropractic without a license. The Chiropractic Board also reported that one of their biggest challenges for 2003 is to continue to discourage physical therapists from performing procedures that the chiropractors consider to be chiropractic."
_____________________________
Todd
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 5:30:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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What Mike Teston did wasn't a manipulation. It wasn't even intended to produce a cavitation (e.g. grade V spinal mobilization). As I understand it from chatting online with him (and he frequents this site, so I'm not sure why he's not chatting up), was a grade III-grade IV mobilization as taught to him through Ola Grimsby during his orthopedic manual therapy fellowship. The patient was a plant sent by the Arkansas board of chiropractors who, I'm sure, had been manipulated so many times as to make the paraspinal musculature so unstable as for the joints to cavitate upon a simple grade I distraction. When the patient cavitated, the board cried foul.
At best, it's entrapment, but what else can one expect from a bunch of redneck wannabe physicians that is the Arkansas Board of Chiropractic Examiners? I'm not saying that all chiropractors are a grade up from used-car-salesman --- but these guys are the the bottom of the professional cesspool. The weakest links in a profession not excatly exhaulted for its ethics. These are the kind of guys who are so criminal that the board of chiropractic examiners should be investigating THEM for license revocation. How these guys got into the positions that they're in is beyond me. If this is the professional behavior that is to be exhemplified --- well then I for one have given chiropractic far too much credit as an emerging profession.
Protecting the public?!?!?! That's their argument?!?!?!? GIVE ME A BREAK!!! The ACA should be ashamed of these idiots instead of backing them! And chiropractors wonder why som many PT's think they're worthless at best and criminal until proven otherwise?
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 5:42:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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TLB-
I don't have a clue why the APTA and ARPTA is standing behind this guy- perhaps you can enlighten me as to their position/argument.
The law is what it is--
And, from what I can ascertain, he/PT Teston knowingly violated his state practice scope. Why? Did he think he was not accountable to the stqte of Arkansas? His liscense meant he could do anything he wanted? -even though prohibited by law? And for how long? He was "asking/begging" for where he is now, or he would have not broken the law.
If you want to practice differently- change the law!! and don't blame DCs for enforcing the law that is in place!!
When you(or anyone, in any profession, for that matter) practice in a particular state, you are bound and obligated to abide by the regulations of that state. If Someone/Teston-- does not agree with the law, move to a different state!
Bottom line----------He, knowingly, and illegally, practiced outside of the practice sope/law in his state, state. It is nobody's fault but his own. Don't blame DCs for the Arkansas PT scope of practice. If you want it changed---- do it yourself- don't blame others.
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 6:34:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
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From: Charlotte, NC
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Jeep,
Don't be an ass. Cavitation does not a manipulation make. If you don't know the difference between a grade I-IV mobilization (allowable for PT's to execute in Arkansas), and a grade V mobilization/manipulation --- then maybe you should go back to chiropractic school for a refresher course. If your ignorance is represnetative of the average Arkansas chiropractor, then maybe the insanity --- while still reprehensible and criminal --- makes a bit more sense.
If he practiced outside of his scope of practice, I'd agree with you. He did not, and the Arkansas board trying to make it out as though he did is criminal. The board of chiropractic has every right to regulate chiropractic --- but not to regulate physical therapy.
What Mike Teston did, was a physical therapy mobilization, approved under the Arkansas physical therapy practice act. Nothing more, nothing less. He did not execute an adjustment. There was no subluxation correction attempted. What he did, is increase the range of a hypomobile intervertebral joint, with a high amplitue, low velocity mobilization; and a low amplitude, low velocity mobilization at endrange. The fact that a cavitation occured is irrelevant.
Neither are grade V mobilizations/manipulations. He is being persecuted, let's be honest, because it is the Chiropractic board of Arkansas, that wants to eliminate competition through administrative action --- and expand chiropractic scope of practice to include that which is the realm of doctors of physical therapy.
In a word, your argument is crap.
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 7:02:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1491
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Drew, ditto everything you just said.
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 7:13:00 AM
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JDMBBuilder
Posts: 49
Joined: December 16, 2004
From: Long Island
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agreed....
Cavitation means nothing. the patient has probably been adjusted so many times that he/she became hypermobile. forget grade 1...you could've probably just breathed on the guy and heard a "cavitation".
btw...thanks JMA for the info
_____________________________
"Anyone can throw you on a "state of the art" machine and call it physical therapy. The only high-tech equipment I need are my brain and two hands..." -JSDPT
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 7:50:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1491
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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I've had lots of people go "clunk" on my table, doing nothing more vigorous to them than some skin stretching. I suppose had I had that happen in Arkansas, while treating a "plant" in an entrapment scenario as slimey and ludicrous as this one, I could have been charged too.
And I happen to be in the anti-manipulation camp!
Be that as it may, I think manipulation fairly belongs with PT if it has to belong somewhere; chiros will eventually adapt or devolve until they no longer exist, and their turn of the last century mental construct will go with them; manipulation could be/should be taught to PTs undergrad, so they can do something basic upon graduation that will let them feel they can do at least one concrete manouver with appropriate patients (then they can evolve from that point on, not get stuck in some backwater mindset...)
Very cross about all this stupidity in Arkansas,
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 7:51:00 AM
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TLB
Posts: 346
Joined: September 13, 2002
From: Arizona
Status: offline
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Drew,
Excellent post! Thanks for the clearing things up.
Todd
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Todd
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 8:03:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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Drew- you assert:
>>"Don't be an ass."<<
-WOW!!!--- Excuse me for stating the facts. I Certainly did not expect that hurl from a forum that demands respectful discussion!! You may feel you can act that way on chiroweb--- but the DCs that particpate here, have been nothing but exceedingly civil.
>> Cavitation does not a manipulation make.<<
--Is THAT the issue here?
>> If you don't know the difference between a grade I-IV mobilization ,allowable for PT's to execute in Arkansas, and a grade V mobilization/manipulation --- then maybe you should go back to chiropractic school for a refresher course.<<
-Sorry- I did NOT go to PT school, and DO NOT know the difference or how PTs define the difference between "grade I-IV "mobilizatons" .
>> If your ignorance is represnetative of the average Arkansas chiropractor,<<
-Igorant of WHAT? I have NO responsibility to know what PT scope is- The PT who has the liscense to practice in Arkansas should know what his/her scope is- NOT A DC!
>> then maybe the insanity --- while still reprehensible and criminal --- makes a bit more sense.<<<
-See above
>>If he practiced outside of his scope of practice, I'd agree with you. He did not,<<
--Well then, the state of Arkansas, along with Jason{above}, do not agree agree with you, per above--"Mobilizations are fully within the PT practice act in Arkansas, manipulation is not."
>>and the Arkansas board trying to make it out as though he did is criminal.<<
Manipulation, by a PT, in the state of Arkansas is not within the PT scope- What about this do you not understand?
>> The board of chiropractic has every right to regulate chiropractic --- but not to regulate physical therapy.<<
-No argument here.
>>What Mike Teston did, was a physical therapy mobilization,<<
- An above post stated that a V mobilization IS manipulation, which BTW, by definition IS outside PT scope, and thereby, illegal.
>>approved under the Arkansas physical therapy practice act. Nothing more, nothing less. He did not execute an adjustment.<<
-His offense is being charged-- a "manipulation" NOT an "adjustment"
>>There was no subluxation correction attempted.<<
-I don't see that as a part of the legal dispute, therefore, meaningless.
>>> What he did, is increase the range of a hypomobile intervertebral joint, with a high amplitue, low velocity mobilization; and a low amplitude, low velocity mobilization at endrange.<<<
-Please provide documentation verifiying this- I will condsider.
>>The fact that a cavitation occured is irrelevant.<<
- Absolutely!! But I strongly suspect that is not the real situation here.
>>>Neither are grade V mobilizations/manipulations. He is being persecuted, let's be honest, because it is the Chiropractic board of Arkansas, that wants to eliminate competition through administrative action --- and expand chiropractic scope of practice to include that which is the realm of doctors of physical therapy.<<<
-What may that be?
>>In a word, your argument is crap.<<
-I will ignore this, in an effort to engage civil discussion.
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Re: www.defendphysicaltherapy.com - March 19, 2005 8:54:00 AM
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SJBird55
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From: Michigan
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The other thing that is screwy is that technically the PT Board should have been involved, not the Chiropractic. Generally, when an allegation is reported and then determined if it is going to be reviewed or not. Then let's say it is reviewed then an investigator investigates and will then report the findings to the appropriate board... in this case, it should have been the PT Board because it was a PT that had an allegation. I guess I should say that I speak from MI law. Those are the appropriate steps that would occur in MI. I would assume the same logic should hold in another state. Your own licensing board determines if you are practicing within your scope of practice.
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