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Re: let's get political
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Re: let's get political - September 27, 2004 5:35:00 AM
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Randy Dixon
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Anyway - think of the Netherlands as having had a teensie bit more experience than the US and Canada in managing their country - they've been at it (and rather successfully) for a long time.
The Netherlands has been a constitutional monarchy since 1815, they have not always been wealthy or prosperous. Technically the US has them beat in longevity by about 40 years.
We probably can and should learn some things from them but I don't think we are going to accept either royalty or socialism, although there are advantages to them. Personally, the thing about the Netherlands I would most like for us to emulate is their tolerance.
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Re: let's get political - September 28, 2004 3:37:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Randy, the Netherlands have had organised (and at times extremely disorganised!) government since the middle ages. There was a union of the seven northern provinces in 1576 (if I am not mistaken through the peace of "Gent"). They called this union the "Republiek" and was considered a great exception for its time, since most countries still had a feudal system or were part of the spanish empire - from which the union had made itself independent. It also no longer belonged to the "Holy Roman Empire". Their move from feudalism brought them to something that was later called "capitalism".
Yes, the history of government of a group of states/provinces goes back a looong way - with all the mistakes, bad and good leaders, assassinations, even the first speculative market "crash" in the tulip trade in 1637 in Amsterdam (my dad's most favourite story of the dutch' ability to trade anything), revolutions, but also greatness in development of laws, democratic principles, arts and science and world exploration.
No, they have not always done well - they suffered in the great depression and have felt first hand the occupation of WWII with great loss of life and infrastructure, but they have survived and prospered often a heck of a lot longer than the states have even existed as an organised entity.
I am not talking about accepting royalty - that plays a much lesser governing role and more an image role. The tolerance I agree with - but there are many things I don't agree with in the Netherlands - no-one will call me names for that there though.
Anyway, y'all have enough by now of my sudden flare of "roots showing their (orange) colour"
Sebastian
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Mundi vult decipi
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Re: let's get political - September 29, 2004 7:14:00 AM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/507333/?sc=wire
Hmmnn. Interesting. Think about this trend and what might result if it carries to its logical conclusion.
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Re: let's get political - September 29, 2004 8:57:00 AM
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emeyer75
Posts: 1
Joined: September 28, 2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
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Repbulicans are better if you own a business and that is the end of it so vote a lot and vote repbulican.
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Re: let's get political - September 30, 2004 3:49:00 PM
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Bubzeebub
Posts: 10
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From: NY
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I guess you can call me a Party Pooper. I vote for the person/interest instead of just sticking to a particular party. The thing is....I noticed earlier in this post, people saying they vote for their pocket first. I understand that but there comes a time when I think it's the human thing to do to vote for the greater good of society. If it means you have lose $100 or so for the year ...then so be it. I would hope you would sleep better if someone else who dearly needed it...was helped.
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Re: let's get political - September 30, 2004 4:10:00 PM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
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Bub,
No offense intended, but wouldn't you rather just give your $100 away as an act of generosity rather than having your government require it of you? If you see someone else who dearly needed it, it shouldn't take a government fiat for you to go ahead and give away your money of your own free will. All some of us ask is that you do not require us to do the same under penalty of arrest.
This concept interests me in that some of the most vociferous class warfare supporters in our government also happen to be the richest, e.g. Ted Kennedy. He feels that the rich 'don't need' all that money, therefore they should not get tax breaks. Yet his message would hold a lot more weight with me if he just gave away his fortune and agreed to accept for the rest of his career the median salary of his constituents in Massachusetts.
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Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: let's get political - September 30, 2004 4:17:00 PM
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Bubzeebub
Posts: 10
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From: NY
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2 things with that reply ... 1) how many people would really give it away (and really...it's their choice if they want to or not) ...BUT more importantly certain things can't be done through individual altruistic giving like you suggest. Such as viable healthcare for more than just a select few whereas a funded program (even if it were constructed by the govt. might be able to accomplish this (since we touched on this subject in this post)
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Re: let's get political - October 1, 2004 4:57:00 AM
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chiroortho
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Joined: February 18, 2004
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On principle I do not believe that the U.S. government should be 'providing viable healthcare'. As a practical matter, the government has not demonstrated an ability to provide anything efficiently with the notable exception of the military. Medicare is our brand of socialized medicine, and is there anyone on this board that thinks Medicare is run efficiently?
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Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: let's get political - October 6, 2004 5:49:00 PM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1477
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From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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Great point Greg....anything the government runs ends up being very inefficient and poorly managed...just look at our postal service, Amtrak, or even the Pennsylvania liquor store system. No, I don't want goverment running my healthcare.
Duffy
[URL=http://www.PTupdate.com]www.PTupdate.com[/URL]
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John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: let's get political - October 6, 2004 7:08:00 PM
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coloradojulie
Posts: 413
Joined: November 10, 2002
From: colorado usa
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Just got back into town...wanted to reply to mato_tom's instructions to get more informed.
Yes Tom it is the timeliness or lack thereof of the tax cut that I object to....and yes my post was misleading as to the timing of these promises...they were used as his election platform the previous election.
I am Canadian...can't vote...but I have been following very closely. The amount of division that exists in this country right now is shocking!
The absolute surity with which dems and repubs believe in their way as the right way...and the acute polarity of these views is astounding.
I love chit chatting (in a respectful way) about these differences....liberal and conservative filters are incredible.
Personally I strongly dislike Bushs' management the last four years...primarily Iraq...and watching him in the debate only comfirmed my belief that he is a simple simple man....
Anyone see the SNL take...HILLARIOUS...both ways!
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PRC
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Re: let's get political - October 7, 2004 10:46:00 AM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
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Julie,
President Bush received a Bachelor's degree from Yale University in 1968, then served as an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard. He then received his MBA from Harvard Business School in 1975.
Where did you receive your Bachelor's degree? Do you have a Masters?
Your comment that our President is a 'simple simple man' is out of line. Are you smart enough to fly a fighter jet? I realize that operating an ultrasound unit can be overwhelming for some people, but do you think it compares favorably with flying fighter aircraft?
Notice also the lack of criticism on this board of the Canadian political leadership.
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Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: let's get political - October 7, 2004 12:20:00 PM
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TLB
Posts: 353
Joined: September 13, 2002
From: Arizona
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"The amount of division that exists in this country right now is shocking!"
"Personally I strongly dislike Bushs' management the last four years...primarily Iraq...and watching him in the debate only comfirmed my belief that he is a simple simple man...."
"Can't vote...Canadian...but Kerry if I could...Bush is a tool."
All quotes attributed to Colorado Julie on two different threads. Let's see, Bush is a tool and he is also a simple simple man, I don't understand where this division comes from! Are you sure your not running on the democratic ticket?
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Todd
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Re: let's get political - October 7, 2004 5:35:00 PM
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PTupdate.com
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From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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What worries me the most is how people note why they are voting against Bush....."I can't stand his smug smile" or "His swagger really annoys me", or "he can't even speak well".
Great reasons for voting!
Or, the slightly more intelligent ones start barking out whatever they heard/read in the liberal and biased news media. Often not having a clue what they are really noting, and really not able to step back and look at the big picture.
I listed on this thread multiple reasons why I will vote for the guy (yes, he does come across as a dolt. I feel he is intelligent and surrounds himself with people to help carry out his vision. Others appear to be buffaloed by smooth talking and Colgate smiles)
I am getting a real charge out of Kerry's most recent TV ads, where he lists 3 points he will work on: Helping small business owners (take a look at his voting record and make sure you have a waste basket to catch the barf after you laugh your guts up), reducing taxes and fixing healthcare.
John Duffy, PT OCS
[URL=http://www.PTupdate.com]www.PTupdate.com[/URL]
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: let's get political - October 7, 2004 8:00:00 PM
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TLB
Posts: 353
Joined: September 13, 2002
From: Arizona
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CJ
I'm waiting on a reply. Where are you?
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Todd
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Re: let's get political - October 8, 2004 3:55:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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Greg, here in Canada we do lots of critiqueing our leadership - and loudly. Maybe you can start a thread about the Canadian election - but this thread is about the US one. Let's not forget that our system is different and that we, on the world stage, are not a powerful player at all as the US. Your leadership has major ramifications for the world - ours doesn't.
I find the polarity in the two camps in the US surprising - neither candidates have lilywhite records, either political or military apparently; yet, if you are FOR Kerry, you must be 100% against Bush and vice versa. Is it really so black and white ? Is the whole election "machine" of either not a bit of concern? It always looks like election time brings out the lowest form of competition - try to stomp the other down (it bugs me that we do it here in Canada too!!). Should we be considered people with brains who can read and decide a vote based on ideas and platforms in detail, or dimwits who decide on the manufactured personalities of a media/election machine?
I can not tell who I would choose, simply because I just do not know and get enough info through the news media on the actual long term policies for each candidate's party. Yes, I get the one-liners and promises, but where are the plans? I always ask our candidates here in my town at their debates to get specific - slogans are marketing.
From a cynical Canadian
Sebastian
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Mundi vult decipi
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Re: let's get political - October 8, 2004 5:26:00 AM
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Jeep
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From: USA
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And- it isn't as simple as who is president- other important elements: ie. who do they choose to be in their cabinet? Then there is always congress(and all the politicing and lobbying that goes on there). ie. the democrats just tried to pin the non-repeal of the assault weapons ban on Bush. Whan in actuality, they(congress) failed to author legislation that the president could sign. And, IMO, it is probably all because it is an election year.
What is exciting(a bit off-topic) is Afghanistan is holding their first-ever election. People there are willing to risk their lives to vote! While here we have citizens too lazy and apathetic to be bothered with voting.
I would like to see the campaign season limited to something like 3 months. This 1-2 year stuff is nonsense. It is not only financially obsurd, it is also robbing from productivity(time spent away from the job). And to make it even worse, the next campaign will already have begun, before the president-elect is sworn in in January.
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Re: let's get political - October 8, 2004 6:06:00 AM
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chiroortho
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Sebastian, I don't think you're being cynical when you raise the issues about the level of campaigning that you raised. It is disgusting on both sides. But the bottom line is simply that it's done because it's effective. Pretty white teeth on camera can raise a candidate's favorability ratings post-debate. Who cares if he's a trial attorney that is essentially a parasite on humanity. John Kerry probably practices his 'thumb point' in front of a mirror, and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if he had a 'thumb-point coach'. When was the last time John Edwards threw a football before the campaign. He looked like a girl out there (no offense ladies).
President Bush does not come across well as a public speaker. He can't help that. By every objective measure he is a very intelligent man, but the subjective factors hurt him in terms of his camera presence. Is that fair? No, but that's tough...it's politics, and can't be avoided.
So I don't see an end to it anytime soon. We have to deal with what we have and try to become informed in more ways than by simply watching a debate.
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Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: let's get political - October 8, 2004 7:55:00 PM
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coloradojulie
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Joined: November 10, 2002
From: colorado usa
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I had made a promise to mayself not to reply to chrioortho's comments or acknowledge them because I felt they were often personally directed attacks...as is his above comments...but I do feel the need to defend myself.
I graduated Suma Cum Laude from one of the top 5 univerisities in Canada. I have two Bachelor's degrees (7 years)...the system in Canada is different, meaning in the US I would have a Master's degree, and actually taught at the local college because of that (Human A and P). In Canada however an additional, related, two years further study is required to claim, in Canada you have your master's degree.
As an intelligent person, who no, does not fly fighter jets, and doesn't use ultrasound because it doesn't work...I can apply my critical appraisal skills of these candidates to draw my conclusions. Yes my "filter" may differ from yours, but my rebuttal to your disagreement is to not question your intelligence.
Lets look at the first debate...and let me create an example we can all relate to...say you were in a very important PT or chiro class...say physiology, or pharmacology...and your professor behaved as does President Bush is his lectures to you...Ummm, Ummm, Aaaa, Aaaa, repeating himself, etc. etc. How confident would you be in him as a professor? Bush looked like in that debate that he did not know what he was talking about, he was flustered and petulant. Imagine asking your professor a question and when you did he bristled? How would you react to that...I see it as a sign of incompetence.
Yes it may be a reflection of poor public speaking skills...and that fact that media exposure can present this to the public...but isn't how this man conducts himself in high pressure situations, speaking to either the American people or the international community or world leaders, an important part of his job?
Now the issues...I am also skeptical of the half truths and spinning from BOTH candidates.
TLB...I visit this site less than I used to so I only check in occasionally hence my absence. I simply cannot listen to Mr. Bush and believe that he knows what he is talking about, or as a stand alone individual(without speech writers etc) that he could hold his own in high pressure situations. What he says is VERY important. It represents America to the rest of the world. I find it hard to imagine that intelligent and educated people that are present on this forum can listen to him and not worry.
My decision is not made merely on debates but the history and record of this president. Kerry's record is always in question with 20 years of senate experience...because Bush doesn't have that experience, he has no record with which we can examine him, other than the last four years.
There is so much misleading pandering by the president to elude to negative Kerry votes on bills and senate issues as a representation of his complete opposition. It is clear that voting reflects a couple of factors, one of which is the entirity of the legislation and whether it is supported in it's entirity, secondly, piggy back bills, where a minor bill is tagged to a larger one. So if the major one is supported by a candidate he is automatically assumed to support the piggy back bill when in fact he has voted for a larger issue. When these voting records are put forth, we lose these perspectives.
The loss of jobs 1.8 million under this president, the loss of health care coverage for 5 million more Americans (for a total of 45 million) under this president, the largest deficit (surplus, war, tax cut, deficit) in US history under this president, an unjustified war under this president (recent CIA report), the first war time tax cut in civilized history under this president, the greatest proliferation of nuclear materials globally under this president, the greatest global anti-american sentiment under this president, cuts for combat pay for active military during the war under this president, reduction of veteran medical benefits during this war under this president, regressive environmental policies that are less strigent under this president, the lack of belief in the science of global warming under this president, the cutting of funding to stem cell research under this president, the lack of corporate prosecution for Enron and World Com CEO's under this president, the withdrawal of force from Aphganistan in the hunt for Osama Bin Laden in defference to the hunt for Sadam Hussein under this president, the lack of reaction to a crucial piece of intelligence documentation in August (the month before Sept 11) entitled loosely "Osama Bin Laden Imminent Attack on US Soil involving Airplanes" despite CIA presentation on Three separate occasions under this president (bipartisan 911 commitee), ignoring active general advice on number of troops to deploy to Iraq, sending 100,000 less troops under this president, developing pre-emptive attack criteria for Iraq, that are not applied to more imminent threats such as North Korea under this president, sending under equipped troops to Iraq under this president, creating a back door draft for volunteer reservists by imposing mandatory increases in service time after they have fufilled their duty under this president, blocked the availability of drug purchasing from Canada preventing access to affordable drugs (protecting drug company interests over American) (the Canadian equivalent of the FDA is FAR more stringent in approving medications as safe and effective) under this president, preventing Medicare from gross purchasing of medications as the VA does to save subscribers up to 139 million annually (an amount of money that stays in the pockets of drug companies) under this president, 700 billion dollars of un-paid for spending approved under this president, etc. etc. etc.
These are the reasons I dislike Bush and think he is wrong for America. I have an opinion about American politics because I live here, pay taxes and my husband and daughter are US citizens...
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PRC
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Re: let's get political - October 9, 2004 3:21:00 AM
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nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
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coloradojulie,
I sympathise with you. Today, this country has just re-elected Bush's good friend, Iraq notwithstanding.
I think I will have to emigrate...
nari
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Re: let's get political - October 9, 2004 4:22:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Good defense Julie. Nari, you can come to Canada if you can stand winter rain for days on end.
Sometimes I think a gang has taken over the world, and they are just letting us (ordinary people) think that we have some illusion/delusion of control. In Canada, we generally have a choice of voting for willing US puppet governments (Conservatives) or reluctant US puppet governments (Liberals). Either way, we bend to the will of the US in most ways, most times. Thank goodness for outspoken back benchers like Carolyn Parrish. Hurray for Michael Moore.
Diane
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