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Re: PT looking for ATC program
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 26, 2004 4:20:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
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That was very cordial of you Mr. Asselbergs, thank you.
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Dr. Wagner DO
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 26, 2004 11:08:00 PM
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ptdan23
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From: Orlando, FL
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Yes TJD, sure did bring out some very strong opinions. I am still thinking about my options - but looks like it is going to be a no go. As a single guy I cannot afford to take 2 years off from work as I have been told I would have to do by one program director (UCF). Just not feasible at this time.
Dan, PT.
P.S. - Just some of the posts bring out how "political" the field of medicine is, for example, the pecking order that someone brought up. That is one thing I hate about the field of medicine. Definitely another topic for discussion.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 27, 2004 9:54:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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Dan,
You know you could always go back to med school, a decision that I made. I was single (a pretty good time to do it), and I had the desire to be an orthopod, physiatrist, or rheumatologist (didn't become either)...It is a long commitment but worth it and the pay and self satisfaction is certainly there.
Just a thought, if you are gonna take time off and you want to do serious sports medicine...perhaps medicine is the way to go?!
If you are in FL, NovaSoutheastern (a DO program) loves PT's.
Hey man, it is a tough decision any way you deal with it. But you gotta be satisfied in what you do. Don't ever think "what if".
best of luck buddy, we may have been in similar situations at this stage in life.
I considered ATC or a manual medicine degree in Australia (I was VERY close to going oversees)...instead I was in a DPT program until I decided being a Physician was how I really needed to go and DO was my goal (combined everything I wanted)
I can only see myself in many of your thoughts.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 27, 2004 1:06:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
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From: West Palm Beach
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nova does have a good DO school, got my mpt there, i was good friends with many of the students, I can answer some questions perhaps-
Ben
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 28, 2004 8:00:00 AM
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dab
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From: Naples, FL USA
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As a PT-ATC with 5 years NFL experience and 20+ overall, I feel qualified to comment here. ATC's, generally speaking, know as much if not more about sports related injuries than many PT's I know. However, as is always the case, it really depends on the PT or ATC we are talking about. Dr. Wagner is absolutely correct in his assessmment of the knowledge and training of ATC's. Unfortunately, there is a lot of ignorance within the field regarding the expertise of the ATC. It would be nice to see people researching a bit more before making unsubstantiated comments here.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 28, 2004 5:29:00 PM
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ptdan23
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From: Orlando, FL
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I have thought about med school - just not sure if that is the right choice for me right now. I really enjoy the rehab field, getting spend time w/ my patients, etc. Also, I am just not sure if I am willing, at least at this time, to take on as big a commitment as medical school is, which could be anywhere from 8-10 years, correct? I am going for manual therapy courses now and eventually certification. Who knows where from there. Any other input?
Dan, PT.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 28, 2004 6:20:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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Well, it is 4 years in school, then there is residency (from 3-5 years) then perhaps fellowship...but DON"T see it like that. Because it is a marathon and NOT a foot race, each step is seen as a goal.
Example, completing each semester was a goal, then completing the first year, then getting through year two and starting clinicals, then completing core clinicals and starting electives etc...
I went through a period of "is this it? Is there more?" And I searched and searched and just decided that I enjoyed medicine and manual therapeutics, but also realized that the only way to REALLY learn material was to be engulfed in it. To live and breathe medicine full time, and no part time classes, no internet, no CME course would really provide it. It had to be an intense learning environment that would bombard me. I really thought that a DO program would be what I wanted.
It is LONG TERM gratification, mutual funds and not stocks.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 28, 2004 10:10:00 PM
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ptdan23
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From: Orlando, FL
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Dr. Wagner,
Did you work as a PT while you were in med school? If not, how did you support yourself.
Thanks, Dan, PT.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 29, 2004 6:16:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
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Well, i had worked for 3 years prior to med school...and frankly I needed to concentrate on school and not work. Yeah, you might be able to work, but I survived by living frugally (sp?). I took out 35k a year in loans to cover living expenses and tuition. It's alot, but that is how it is done. You really don't worry about it, because you can't worry about it.
Potentially you could work to offset some expenses, but not enough to pay for tuition...unless you are at a state school.
But you can't worry about money...hell you'll make 150k out of residency and until then it will be in deferrment.
Listen the government will loan you everything you need, I HATE loans, but there is no other way to get through school anymore.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 29, 2004 9:25:00 AM
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FLAOrthoPT
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PT DAN and company, I still think you are missing the question. "Should an established PT go back and get an ATC to be able to get on the field experience." NOT "is an ATC good for ont he field experience." I never wanted to or would I argue that question. But the former question is what the scenario is. So, yes, I still think an ATC is fine to assess the status of emergency of an on field injury. I also feel that ATCs are very useful in their setting, on the field and in the training room. I still also feel, having worked along side ATC in just about every arena from professional to highschool to clinic, that their thought process is not on par with a PT. I do not think the ATC is taught to assess lumbar pathologies when the patient has a knee problem, etc. A PT is a movement scientist, an expert at biomechanical assessment. I would let an ATC "rehab" an athlete (keep in mind I am saying athlete) any day of the week barring no other significant past med hx, or injuries or strange complications. However, you take an athlete who has chronic hamstring strains. Would an ATC look at their pelvic alignment/biomechanics/stability or to see if the high hamstrings are able to eccentrically control the pelvis and LE, would they enough to check the L-spine to see if not enough lumbar extension is occuring from an FRS perhaps that is causing extra motion at the hip or knee...I just feel that complete rehab cannot be done without a PT no matter how skilled at
"rehabbing" an ATC is, they were just not taught to think in the same way. So, before you base your idea of PT as being a glorified ATC because frankly when you graduated the whole aspect of Diagnosis and biomechanincal assessment was almost entirely lacking, and just treating the orthopod's Dx of injuries was the mindset; it has come a long way since. look at someone graduating within the past 5 years with an MsPT, or DPT degree, with ortho experience in the clinic, an OCS perhaps and justify why an ATC is necessary for this person to go back and get? What skills would be learned other than something they can learn by taking a basic EMS course? I still feel an ATC is a great degree for a PT who is ortho minded to start off with, but never is it necessary to go back and get. You are better off...THIS SPECIFIC SCENARIO: THAT IS A GRADUATED PT...spending the time and money getting an SCS if on the field work is what you seek. Going back and getting an ATC is not needed or appropriate use of time or money.
Amen
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 29, 2004 7:10:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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PTDAN , you may send me a personal message if you want...regarding medschool etc.
As for the ATC talk, I think there is considerable disagreement that will likely not be resolved. This has probably run its course.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 30, 2004 11:08:00 AM
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ptdan23
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From: Orlando, FL
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Doc...still pondering the whole med school thing. I brought it up to a friend of mine (she is a PT/ATC) and she brought up what about going back for PA (which should only take 2 years). Thought about it but at the school where I went I didn't like the PA's and not sure if I would like being one. From what I heard you get all the crap the docs don't want. I have pretty much decided for now that I want to stay in the rehab field (will always want to be in the rehab field). Will keep working on my manual therapy certification, maybe DPT and/or PhD (I like research). Who knows, maybe someday I will change my mind and think more about med school. If I have anymore questions will be sure to look you up Doc.
FLAOrthoPT - I agree with a lot you are saying. I have to give it to ATC - they are the on field specialist and that is their domain. I think anything outside of that, as far as rehab goes, is ours! The one reason that ATC's are used in PT clinics is really cost - not to say that is the right reason to be using them. I do not think that they should treat spine, neuro, etc even though I know that happens in a lot of clinics.
Dan, PT.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 31, 2004 5:48:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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As a PT I just could never see my self as "an assissant"...they absolutely get all the crap (paperwork, H&P's, piddly stuff) that docs don't want. And I just don't think there is any shortcut to learning the RIGHT WAY...whether that be med school, PT school, or AT school. There are are some good medical schools in Florida (that is where you said you were from right) and you should give them a try. Make sure you have all your prerequisites done, and perhaps you could take a MCAT prep test to see how you may score.
Medicine needs good doctors and I think those with previous experience makes the best MD/DO's.
Best of luck man.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - November 2, 2004 8:04:00 PM
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ptdan23
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Joined: November 6, 2003
From: Orlando, FL
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I agree with you Doc. I had thought about that too and came to the same conclusion you did. I will keep pondering and see what kind of decision I come to.
Thanks, Dan, PT.
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