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Re: PT looking for ATC program
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 9, 2004 6:27:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
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From: West Palm Beach
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Wow, way too much caffeine today, or severe case of road rage redirected at the computer there usa...Not sure where my "attack on the profession" was? I stated facts, not so much opinion...I clearly stated..not trying to start an ATC vs PT argument here, I have had a LOT of experience with ATCs on MANY different levels and settings. It is not an attack to say that I do not think an ATC degree is on the same level of a PT degree, is that an attack? I think LMT is a great profession, lots of money for little schooling, get to work with people, no real lawsuits, opportunities endless, direct access...I would also say, what is there an LMT can do that a PT cannot, I would make the same argument...why get a degree that your degree already encompasses. I can see if an LMT want to get a PT degree, but it doesn't make sense the other way around. THAT is the point I was making. There is nothing an ATC degree holds that a PT isn't already licensed to do if they have an emergency responder course. Sure they may need some cont. education, but that is a lot different than going and getting another bachelor degree. I just do not see the purpose of spending time and money on skills that you should aready have or that you can add to your already acquired license through cont. ed and through advanced certification....I also do not think any PT needs to get a CSCS, not that it isn't a good cert. but what does it get you, it is all things that you should already know...I like the personal attack, it is very becoming of you. I have worked along side ATC in clinics, on the field, and under one in the professional realm. I also took 4 semesters worth of ATC classes. I do not see any scope of their practice that cannot be done by a ortho trained PT. So it is not an attack, I tell a lot of people (who are not already PTs) to go into ATC because it is a fun profession with little financial investment and many different settings available. I still do not see the purpose of an already PT becoming an ATC, so if this gets you all steamed up than be it. I also do not see the purpose of an established PT spending 10K to become a DPT, so if this gets you steamed up too, so be it. I do not recall too many people taking such offensive reactions to any post even between chiro/PT, so if you want to talk professionalism, re-read your post and think of other ways you could have handled it. Or if you want to meet at 3 o clock behind the soccer fields we can duke it out, that is mature too.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 9, 2004 6:31:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
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From: West Palm Beach
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That is the part of ATc that makes it almost full time, classes then the in the training room and at practices. You cannot pick and choose which sport/which days you want to cover it is up to the program. It is pretty impossible these days to do ATC "part time." I would also like to know if that is a guess or a fact that it is illegal for a PT with an on the field emergency respone training, be it EMT or home study, etc, cannot be on the field. The only criteria as far as I can decipher, and I guess I am a stupid non-professional person so what do I know, is having a license to do emergency response on the field. But you are all knowing, and maybe from your soap box you can let me know...
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 9, 2004 6:35:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
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From: West Palm Beach
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and furthermore, now that we are on the subject...I do think it is interesting what the nata is stewing about, as far as grabbing "some turf" from the PTs. I know several ATC who think the clinic, manual skills, biomechanical assessment, diagnosing, etc should be within their realm, and I still think, if they feel this way, get a PT degree...is this an attack "on an entire profession"? I don't think so, but if you do, then I am unsure as to why. I just think that as a PT you should be protective of your turf that is trying to be/already gobbled up by personal trainers, LMT, ATC, chiro, exercise phys, respiratory therapists, and other alternative groups.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 10, 2004 6:59:00 AM
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USAPT
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ptdan23, here is the information regarding FL law. Also see, [URL=http://www.ataf.org]www.ataf.org[/URL] for more info.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0468/part13.htm&StatuteYear=2004&Title=%2D%3E2004%2D%3EChapter%20468%2D%3EPart%20XIII
FLOrthoPT: "As far as hydration, taping (which does nothing anyway), and on the scene emergency response (which once again usually a doctor and an EMT squad is on scene anyway) an ATc is a cheaper alternative to a PT. But I cannot think of anything that an ATC knows that a Ortho minded PT does not?" I think you missed my point. The fields are very similar in many ways and also very different. having my PT icense gives me a perfect vision of the 2 professions. I also agree with you. I think there are some thins that we as PTs do that ATCs should not be doing. You are correct in that the depth of knowledge in school is not the same. I found the PT curriculum much more in depth. However, I do not think the AT courses are "VERY watered down PT treatment courses, with no foundation as to the why and biomechanical approach to PT."
Again, I think your response was inappropriate. This is not the place for trivial attacks, but you do seem very threatened by what has been said. Not sure why. Oh, the DPT issue, becuase tht is what the APTA vision statement of 2020 is. And that is what most schools are now. So yes, i do have it and am proud of it. My education was outstanding.
ptdan23, college, high school, and clinic. Cannot speak on what the relationship is at the professional level. I wouldn't want the hours anyway. I hope that answered your question. Good luck with everything
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Jason, PT
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 11, 2004 7:24:00 PM
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ptdan23
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From: Orlando, FL
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USAPT,
I checked out the FL statues and did not find anything that stated that ATC's are the only ones allowed to provide on-field care nor did I find anything saying that PT's could not do so. If you have the exact location or can quote it I would appreciate it.
Thanks, Dan, PT.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 12, 2004 9:13:00 AM
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USAPT
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Dan,
Again, I ask you to re-read the above statues. It clearly says if 'you provide yourself as an ATC, you must be licensed to do so'. I spoke to Tim McClain, ATC in Governmental Affairs for FL (904) 282-0644 or ltimmclane@att.net. If you are a PT and do ATC work without being licensed, you are at risk for losing your PT license. Hope that helps. Any further info, I suggest calling Tim (who better to ask).
-Jason
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Jason, PT
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 12, 2004 9:15:00 AM
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USAPT
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Dan,
Tim's email is full, please call him instead with questions.
-Jason
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Jason, PT
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 12, 2004 9:55:00 AM
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ptdan23
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From: Orlando, FL
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Jason,
I would never misrepresent myself and say that I was an athletic trainer. But no where in the statutes does it say that a PT can not provide on-field services as a PT.
I did see that part that you quoted, but that would only apply if I said I was an athletic trainer.
Dan, PT.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 12, 2004 11:02:00 AM
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FLAOrthoPT
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From: West Palm Beach
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that is precisely what an SCS provides, allows you to do on the field care without worry about license...you do not need to be an atc to do ont he field coverage, much like you do not need to be a LMT to provide STM, nor a personal trainer to give exercises, nor a PA to perfom surgery. A PT degree is higher than an ATC on the heirarchal scale, marked by one putting PT prior to ATC, ideally this is the way to go if you knew in undergrad this is what you wanted to do, but to provide you an option for post professional an SCS was formed...how things come full circle...
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 12, 2004 3:10:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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Let me put it to you this way...I would prefer a ATC by my side than a PT, SCS...they just don't offer the on field experience that I am looking for.
I work as a team doctor right now, the ATC's do a fantastic job. Wouldn't have it any other way.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 12, 2004 3:14:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
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From: West Palm Beach
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lets argue for aguements sake, I really just want to probe this some. Have you had a SCS by your side? Not saying ATC level is inferior, nor am I saying SCS is superior, is it possible they are on same level, or different viewpoints, maybe good to have both there? Are you comparing your experience with atc on the field with SCS, or are you merely saying it "ain't broke.."
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 12, 2004 6:44:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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As a PT, I was on the sideline (I was not a SCS I was a PT,CSCS) and I shouldn't have been...but no I have not worked with a SCS. I know what the certification standards are for the SCS, but that is not what I am looking for...I want a degreed specialist. It simply makes no logical sense to not have an ATC there.
But why should I a SCS in the first place? The ATC's are the "gold standards" do EVERYTHING appropriately, I watch over them, they are FANTASTIC...and CHEAPER than a PT, SCS. If I am on the sideline, I want the experience and knowledge of an ATC, the tried and true "gold standard" of on field management of athletic injuries.
Why would I want anything else?? If I am there, what is the advantage of having a PT??? none. If I am not there, what is the advantage of a SCS, none...I trust the ATC with acute management more than the PT. For "on field" injuries, you can't substitute the two. For clinic rehab, I would certainly want the SCS
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Dr. Wagner DO
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 13, 2004 5:40:00 AM
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FLAOrthoPT
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for high school sports I am not going to argue, but if you are talking college and pro, wouldn't it be great to have the PT who is going to be doing the rehab be right there to see the injury, what if the pt could do some manip/mobs and minimize the time of delay of treatment from the saturday game until the monday or tuesday eval. I do not disagree that ATC cannot do the job, I keep thinking you think I am saying this. I am saying maybe the SCS IS the gold standard...who is the gold standard of massage out of curiosity, the masseuse, the LMT, or the PT with MFR, etc, post clinical experience? Once again I am just having you question your own argument, not because I disagree that an ATC can do the job, but I still think an SCS would be just as if not more valued on the sideline. You keep saying that you know what you are looking for even though you are not have not been with one nor want an SCS. I am still posing the theory that an SCS would be the gold standard, not that an ATC cannot do the job. Frankly, to be blunt, I right now with an "emergency on the field" training course, have no doubt that I would be more valued on the sideline than an ATC. By being able to diagnose a whole heck of a lot better than the family doc and the ATC on the sideline, and still be able to respond to the injury at hand, I do not see your argument fully, other than cost effectiveness. But if someone's responsibiities as part of their job description was to be on the field, than cost isn't an issue. Once again, I think you are being pretty tunnel viewed on this based solely upon your experience, and therefore, I am dropping this subject entirely, because good arguments can only occur with people who can at least step outside of their world and imagine a world they have not been in. So conversation over, ATCs great at what they do, no argument there, but why not an SCS as a better alternative? Done with this thread-
Take care-
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 13, 2004 6:20:00 AM
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USAPT
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being both an ATC and a PT, I obviously concur with Dr.Wagner. There is no substitute for on field coverage. Being a PT makes me an even better ATC and vice versa. Each career has its place in the health care management of athletes/patients and there is going to be some overlap, but there is a point where 1 profession stops and the other begins. That's why I feel I have best of both worlds.
Anyway, to all in FL...stay off the roads..
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Jason, PT
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 13, 2004 4:54:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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First and foremost the "best" on field person is the fellowship trained physician. Period.
The next is the ATC, day in, day out they live for "on field" coverage. They study "on field coverage". They sleep it and breathe it. A PT doesn't do that...they rehab. They don't tape, they don't brace, they don't know the ins and outs of uniforms and pads. I want an ATC for that...just like I want a Paramedic in the ambulance, not a nurse...regardless of percieved "pecking order".
If I want a sports specialist for rehab, I will find a PT ocs or PTscs.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 14, 2004 11:30:00 AM
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jennimasterson
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As an individual with a Master's in PT and a Bachelor's degree in AT I would like to put my two cents in.
1. PT and ATC programs are neither better or worse than the other, the are different. One is a degree in the evaluation and treatment of athletic injuries with a heavy emphasis on on-field injury management. The other covers everything from cardiopulmonary to neuro to musculoskeletal rehabiliation and treatment.
2. Everyone knows somebody in either profession who perhaps is not as competent as one might hope. i.e.: I've met met ATC's that I wouldn't let perform a cranial nerve assessment on a living human and I've met PT's that couldn't perform a biomechanical assessment to save their lives.
3. The SCS is an exam which yes, you could use your hours in an orthopedic clinic treating ATHLETES to make up the hour, but do you really think this is the same thing as doing an actual clinical internship in the area. Are you trying to say that rehabbing injuries in the clinical setting under your own supervision (where things are much more controlled) is the same as doing 2000 hours of training on the field in an athletic environment under the supervision of an individual who has been working in that setting for years. Would you want your entry level PT in an orthopedic setting if they hadn't completed at least one orthopedic clinical.
4. Could an intelligent PT who is competent perform well on the field with a SCS and no ATC? I'm sure they're out there and doing fine, but I would think there is a learning curve.
5. I don't recall anything being watered down in my ATC program, but it was very different than PT school in terms of what was taught. I went to Indiana for ATC and Washington University for PT and both were excellent schools. Having said that they both did a better job educating in their specific areas as they were designed to produce a specific health professional.
6. Would I do it a PT and then an ATC if I didn't already have my ATC. No not personally but then I want to be working in an orthopedic outpatient physical therapy clinic at this point in my career. I don't think we should be telling people their choice to go do an ATC degree is wrong if they know they want to go into the sports medicine side of things. It's a personal choice.
Just my two cents.
J. Masterson MSPT, ATC,L
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 23, 2004 11:19:00 AM
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marptatc
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Unless the SCS exam covers both the practical and simulation testing that is required of the NATA exam, it is not possible to compare these two disciplines on the core aspects that historically has been the duties of the ATC. Taking the SCS exam does not qualify oneself to act "as an ATC". Their is much covered by NATA curriculum programs that cannot be picked up by other methods without the necessary hours of coursework and clinical sports coverage. So thus I must disagree with the comments by FLAOrthoPT
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 24, 2004 6:15:00 PM
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ptdan23
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From: Orlando, FL
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Vespa...thanks very much for throwing your two cents in!
Dan, PT.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 25, 2004 11:48:00 PM
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tjdatc
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Dan,
I think it is great that you are continuing your education and expanding your professional skills by looking into the ATC degree. Obviously, this brought out some strong opinions on the value of an ATC degree for the existing PT.
There are some very informative posts on the topic! ...and a few misguided ones. Vespa offers a great summary. And you will no doubt hear from people who believe pursuing an ATC degree would be a waste of time for you. On the other hand, I have a friend who is a primary care physician/sports medicine specialist who went back and obtained his ATC certification(when internship route was available) in order to enhance his skillset for dealing with athletes.
I think you will find the majority of athletes, coaches and team physicians hold ATCs in very high regard and would prefer have a PT/ATC on the sideline rather than a PT/SCS (And yes...I have worked with both...many times)
I would recommend talking to as many ATCs and especially PT/ATCs as you can. An experienced PT/ATC can offer some solid insight to your specific situation. I honestly believe that you will find it almost impossible to obtain the ATC degree on a part-time basis. In that sense (I can't believe I am typing this) FLAOrthoPT might be correct in saying you may find it easier to pursue your SCS instead.
Not everyone can be an ATC, ya know. A lot of knuckleheads have to drop out after only 4 semesters!!! jk
Again...good luck with your pursuits.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - October 26, 2004 3:05:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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I tend to agree with docwagner: I have spent many 1000's of hours on field/ice/court/track/pool/mountains and in clinic with many athletes and teams over the past 22 years; many competitive events (Worlds/Olympics/Nationals) as PT with sports specialisation - not to put too fine a point to this: ATs are so specifically trained for on-field, I'd defer to them any time (of course there are bad ones..) to go out first.
An aside: With doc wagner's background (PT AND DO), he'd have no need for the skills of another PT/manual person.
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