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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession-
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 28, 2003 6:33:00 PM
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smckewen
Posts: 1
Joined: November 2, 2003
From: Flagstaff, AZ US
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Physical therapists not only help to heal, they teach people how to take care of themselves, how to manage injuries, how to take control and avoid future problems. I became a physical therapist because I feel that when a patient is educated, they can better deal with their injury, or post-surgical regime. I also wanted to have a very broad base of knowledge to draw from. Pediatrics, geriatrics, neurology, orthopedic, spinal cord injuries, prosthetics, sports medicine, wound care, workmen's compensation, pre and post surgical intervention, inpatient, outpatient, home health, women's issues, etc. I am on my way to specializing in hand therapy. There are many other specialties available.
I must say, I have been disappointed in the number of times I have had a patient with an obvious disc pathoogy who initially saw a chiropractor, who did none of the tests to verify nerve root imvolvement and consequently did more harm than good. I have also been disappointed by the woman who saw a chiropractor who adjusted her, but then after seeing me, was quickly sent on for further diagnostic testing and found to have MS. Chiropractors do not have the extensive training we do, I am a Doctor, and I am very thankful I have the education behind my degree that they do not.
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 29, 2003 1:34:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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Nari,
I didn't "get" any title (what's a medico anyway). 5 years undergrad, grad school and 4 years of medical school with 4 in residency is not being "handed" anything. That is all full time. In med school I barely had time to head to the bathroom baby.
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 10, 2004 12:39:00 PM
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heidiCA07
Posts: 7
Joined: January 5, 2004
From: Los Angeles, CA 91367
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Hi Sam,
What does a CSCS initial mean?
Thanks
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 10, 2004 2:50:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. You take a test...you get some letters...you do not need to be a PT, PTA or DC.
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 12, 2004 11:29:00 AM
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DocZon
Posts: 70
Joined: April 19, 2003
From: Winchester, MA
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Smckewen-
Your negative experience with the chiropractic profession is unfortunate. I think you should realize that many PT's see many of the chiro failures, but chiros see many of the PT failures.
Your view may be a bit jaded. I am a chiropractor at a hospital. Trust me, we see many PT failures, but I don't discount the physical therapy profession because it is not effective. I just know that if someone does not respond in a PT setting, chiropractic may be the next logical choice. The same is true in the reverse. hence, it may appear that chiropractic is not effective or PT is not effective.
Chiropractors do have a lot of training, in fact, more than most PT programs and on par with many medical programs in regards to classroom hours. I am not talking residency.
MS is not the easiest diagnosis to make, nor should a chiro or PT be making it for that matter. So cut the guy some slack. Yes, the chiro should have done a good neuro exam, but with MS, come on-it is often normal.
DocZon
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 12, 2004 12:30:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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DocZon,
I commend you on your diplomatic reply. Seriously.
I'm curious as to where (as in what state) and in what capacity you're working as a chiropractor in a hospital. Forgive my ignorance, but other than a chiropractic radiologist, pain management center, or orthopedics for MUA, I don't see much demand/need for chiropractic services in a hospital.
What exactly do you do?
Drew
P.S. DPT programs are generally 3.5 years, in fact, some MPT programs are that long. Unless something has changed since 1995 when I wask taking chiropractic courses, that's about the same amount of time isn't it?
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball PT PhD (edited January 12, 2004).]
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 12, 2004 2:35:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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DocZon, you are kidding yourself if you think chiropractic course time is on par with medical school...sure, I could be in a cooking class for 2 hours and then forensic pathology for 2 hours...doesn't make them equal does it?
For every hour of class time, I had at LEAST an hour of at home study time. The quantity of information is unparalleled. Drinking from a fire hydrant is the analogy.
PT, DC, and MD programs are distinctly different and honestly comparing them is ridiculous. DC's closest living relative is PT and I can tell you that PT school is nothing like medical school. It isn't supposed to be!
Why not embrace each professions' uniqueness rather than attempting blind comparisons based upon class time? Apples and oranges.
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 12, 2004 4:43:00 PM
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flexion
Posts: 151
Joined: August 7, 2002
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Doc Wagner:
I think I should clarify DocZon's point. The number of hours in class for a DC is exactly the same as medical school aside from residency. His comment isn't meant to say that our training is necessarily more rigorous - he just wants to convey that its not a 1 year course like probably 50% of the population thinks including many PTs. Thats the read I got from his post in reply from my perspective.
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 13, 2004 1:25:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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So what? A PT program is 3.5 to 6 years, a quality NP program is 2 to 3 years, an ATC-L program is 4 to 5 years, an OD program is 3.5 to 4 years, and a CRNA course of study is about that long too. I don't really get the guy's point. Years of education means little in terms of equivocation to other health care professions --- this coming from a guy who, even with some years compressed, all told has been in school over a decade. I've been in school about as long as most MD's including residency --- doesn't make me a physician though.
Drew
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball PT PhD (edited January 13, 2004).]
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 13, 2004 7:31:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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Gotta agree with that...but holy crap, I go nuts during these conversations!
Hell I have had FULL TIME (ain't got a job, text book in hand, living in the library kind of full time) undergraduate, graduate, post graduate training for a total of 14 years...that could mean I am a supreme idiot (hush your mouth)...or it could mean I have had a lot of school with continued success. Doesn't mean I am the Grand PooBah or anything. People have more, people have less, some with easy stuff, some hard stuff.
The quality of the training, the validity of the training, the rigors of the training, and the ability pass and become certified and meet national standards are the most important things.
Apples and oranges.
[This message has been edited by Dr.Wagner (edited January 13, 2004).]
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 13, 2004 7:43:00 AM
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curio
Posts: 70
Joined: May 22, 2003
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This link has an interesting comparison of educational requirements:
[URL=http://dptvision.org/comparison.html]http://dptvision.org/comparison.html[/URL]
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 13, 2004 10:47:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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Validate it.
Name references. I see mistakes, and one fosters misconceptions when you put info up like that...Naturopaths, Homeopaths, LMT's all use that style of argument to validate their degree. Don't let the DPT fall into the same strategy as the Naturopaths!
Still, please...read the above posts. You will get scrubbed in the professional world if you believe the cr@p you post. You simply CANNOT compare professional schools like that. Just like saying a 4 year degree from Indiana Vocational Tech College is the same as a 4 year degree from Harvard. Is entering Wash U. school of PT the same as Governors State U. in Illinois??Give me a break dude.
Apples and oranges.
A myofascial course should never hold the same weight as a pulmonology/critical care course (I took both, Myofascial in DsPT St. Augustine and Pulm/Crit care in Med School, USH-COM...both 3 hours). YOU CAN'T JUDGE PROFESSIONS BY TIME OR CREDIT HOURS!!!
[This message has been edited by Dr.Wagner (edited January 13, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Dr.Wagner (edited January 13, 2004).]
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 13, 2004 11:42:00 AM
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DocZon
Posts: 70
Joined: April 19, 2003
From: Winchester, MA
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We took the admission requirements for medical schools from the publication titled: Medical School Admission Requirements, 1997-1998: United States and Canada, 47th edition (published by The Association of American Medical Colleges). Admission requirements for accredited chiropractic schools are dictated by the Council on Chiropractic Colleges (the agency appointed by the U.S. Dept. of Education to accredit chiropractic colleges).
We encourage the reader to note that chiropractic school involves between 400-to-600 more classroom hours than medical school. The Parker College study more recently reported that on average, chiropractic college involves 372 more classroom hours than medical school. Chiropractic students also have more hours of training in anatomy, physiology, diagnosis, and orthopedics (the musculoskeletal system). It should be apparent from looking at the data below that in general, the chiropractic student has a more extensive classroom education and practical training in these areas, particularly in diagnosis, than the medical student.
Requirements for Admission to
Chiropractic and Medical Schools
Parker College of Chiropractic
Biological Science (with lab)..............1 year
General or Inorganic Chemistry
(with lab)..........................................1 year
Organic Chemistry (with lab)..............1 year
Physics (with lab).............................1 year
English or Communicative Skills.........2 years
Psychology......................................1/2 year
Humanities or Social Sciences...........Not less
than 15 semester hours, or 22.5 quarter hours.
Electives............From 4-to-12 semester hours,
or from 6-to-18 quarter hours.
Harvard Medical School
Biology (with lab)..............................1 year.
General or Inorganic Chemistry
(with lab)..........................................1 year
Organic Chemistry (with lab)..............1 year
Physics (with lab).............................1 year
Mathematics (calculus).....................1 year
Expository Writing............................1 year
Stanford University School of Medicine
Biology (with lab)....................................1 year
Chemistry, including organic (with lab).....2 years
Physics (with lab)...................................1 years
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
Biological Science (with lab).........8 semester hours
General or Inorganic Chemistry
(with lab).....................................8 semester hours
Organic Chemistry (with lab)........ 8 semester hours
Physics (with lab)........................8 semester hours
Humanities or Social Sciences.....24 semester hours
Mathematics (calculus)................4 semester hours
The Following is Published by the Parker College of Chiropractic 2500 Walnut Hill, Dallas, Texas 75229 (214) 438-6932
Degree Requirements
These basic educational requirements for graduates of both chiropractic and medical schools show that although each has its own specialties, the hours of classroom instruction are about the same. (The class hours for basic science comparisons were compiled and averaged following a review of curricula of 18 chiropractic colleges and 22 medical schools, based on the 1988-1989 Association of American Medical College Curricula.)
Minimum Required Hours
Chiropractic College/Medical College
456.........Anatomy/Embryology............215
243................Physiology.....................174
296................Pathology.......................507
161................Chemistry.......................100
145................Microbiology...................145
408................Diagnosis.......................113
149................Neurology.......................171
271.................X-Ray.............................13
56.............Psychology/Psychiatry.........323
66.............Obstetrics & Gynecology......284
168.................Orthopedics.......................2
2,419......Total Hours for Degree.......2,047
College Faculty
The U.S. Department of Education, through the separate accrediting agencies for chiropractic and medical schools, dictates the credentials of faculty members. In both chiropractic and medical schools, the classes for the first two academic years are usually basic sciences. Faculty members in the basic sciences divisions are either Ph.D.s in each subject taught (such as microbiology or biochemistry), or D.C.s, M.D.s, or D.O.s who also have bachelors, masters, or Ph.D. degrees in the basic science subjects being taught. Classes in the clinical sciences division are usually taught by D.C.s, M.D.s, or D.O.s. In many chiropractic colleges, M.D.s or D.O.s are permitted to teach certain courses, such as laboratory diagnosis. However, D.C.s must teach courses in which M.D.s or D.O.s don't have sufficient education or practical clinical experience.
Some chiropractic colleges have active research departments in which researchers conduct both basic science and clinical studies. The subjects of study range from biomechanics to biochemistry. Traditionally, chiropractic colleges had only minuscule research funding compared to medical schools. I recall political medicine using this fact as evidence that chiropractic wasn't legitimate. However, the medical critics failed confess that the minimal funding or lack of it was a result of political medicine doing everything in its power to block funding of studies in chiropractic college. Obviously, political medicine used a circular and disingenuous argument to deceive the public. Today, chiropractic colleges are receiving more funding for research.
Some medical schools have D.C.s as full-time faculty members. The University of Colorado School of Medicine, for example, has a full-time chiropractic radiologist as a faculty member. Dr. James P. Barassi, a chiropractor, is Research Fellow in Medicine at Harvard Medical School. D.C.s occasionally teach part-time or special classes through medical schools. It's not unusual for D.C.s and M.D.s to co-teach both medical and chiropractic audiences. Most often, chiropractic physicians and medical neurologists or neurosurgeons co-teach.
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 13, 2004 11:55:00 AM
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DocZon
Posts: 70
Joined: April 19, 2003
From: Winchester, MA
Status: offline
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Dr. Ball-
Thanks for your kind words. The chiropractic dept. I work in basically runs like an outpatient hospital PT clinic. we are on staff and have admitting priv. although I cannot really see myself admitting anyone. If that were ever the case, we would just send them back to their PCP.
About 60% of our patients are referred in by their PCP or specialist. The orthopedists are our largest referral source. We are NMS oriented, hence the patients are put on treatment plans with a beginning, middle and end. I think that was their screening question. If no improvement, they are usually sent back to the referring doc. We don't treat cancer, which many of the docs initially asked us. In terms of our philosphy, we fit well. We don't talk lifetime care and that subluxations are the silent killers etc.
Interstingly, many of the regular patients who we see on a prn basis or 1x/month basis are the docs that work in the hospital.
It definately lends some credibility being in the hospital. We try and work closely with the PT's, but to be honest, we all treat some pretty similar stuff. We refer more to them than they refer/recommend us. We all get along very well. i was actually a PT assistant at the hospital PT clinic prior to going to chiro school.
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 13, 2004 12:05:00 PM
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DocZon
Posts: 70
Joined: April 19, 2003
From: Winchester, MA
Status: offline
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Dr. Wagner-
I agree with what Flexion had stated. Thanks Flexion. I am in no way saying our educations are the same. Classroom hours though, it is on par. Trust me, just because I took 2 semesters of cardiology does not mean I want to see cardiac patients nor am I qualified to do so. My philosophy, like most DC's (some are suspect I admit) is merely to be able to recognize what is a cardiac problem which needs to be referred out vs. a musculoskeletal problem which can be managed with chiropractic treatment.
I learned how to deliver babies and we had to perform complete gynecological exams on a hired female "model" as they called her. By no way does that qualify me or any other chiro to act in the capacity of a gynecologist.
My point was more to Smeck (sorry, can't remeber full name) that a chiropractor's education is pretty sound and his point that we are not educated to the same degree as PT's is false.
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 13, 2004 2:12:00 PM
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DocZon
Posts: 70
Joined: April 19, 2003
From: Winchester, MA
Status: offline
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BackTalk-
I am an employee of the hospital. I don't rent space. Our website, which is not yet complete, is winchesterhospitalchiro.com
There are edits which need to be made as well as some typographical mistakes, but it is almost done. Let me know what you think. Are you a chiro? PT?
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 14, 2004 3:07:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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You could almost SWEAR I am talking to a WALL. Frustrating.
Look, please R.E.A.D. my above post, as it is helpful in refuting your post. Comparing chiropractic entrance requirements (which you only need a "C") versus Medical school is nonsense. So your grades were good enough to get you into Stanford? Hmmmm
Secondly: Why is it that NO medical school accepts chiropractic credits for the basic sciences portion in medical school? Conspiracy or quality control?
Lastly: the burdon of proof is on YOU, therefore, call any medical school in the continental US and ask to take the USMLE or COMLEX step 1 exams. If your educational portion of Chiropractic school is the SAME as Stanford MEd, then you should be able to pass the FIRST portion of medical licensure taken after year 2 in med school. This standardized (1 of 3)portion is an attempt to validate education taught in the first 2 years.
We had a chiropractor in the class above and the class below me in medical school...the would have whole heartedly disagreed with you.
In fact, why not take your argument to [URL=http://www.chiroweb.com]www.chiroweb.com[/URL] see if your own people agree with you?
Finally, why shouldn't people just be proud of their education and their individual profession. Comparisons made to Physicians is only an attempt to validate insecurities within yourself. I am proud to be both a PT and a Doc...the educations are WORLDS apart both in focus and content. It is a good thing that therapists do not focus on pharmacology or the pathology/histology/treatment of leukemia but rather, the use of PNF to treat the hemiparesis of a CVA...that is immensely more important to your practice (it was in mine).
The sooner you start focusing on your STRENGTHS rather than attempting to validated perceived differences...the better off we will all be!
Adjunct faculty is common in medicine, which may include nurses, RT's, EMT's, MPH etc. You can't use that as an example of validation of your educational experience. There are hundreds of "faculty" in medical schools with the typical pyramid type structure (clinical to full professor to Emeritus).
[This message has been edited by Dr.Wagner (edited January 14, 2004).]
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Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - January 14, 2004 4:22:00 AM
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DocZon
Posts: 70
Joined: April 19, 2003
From: Winchester, MA
Status: offline
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Dr. Wagner-
I am proud of my education and I practice in a way that draws on my strengths. I wasn't the one who brought up the issue of education. If somesome says that my education is lacking, I think I should have a right to defend it, just as you are defending your education.
"Chiropractors do not have the extensive training we do, I am a Doctor, and I am very thankful I have the education behind my degree that they do not." This was the quote made by Smkewen(I just can't remeber this persons name.)
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