|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession-
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - October 9, 2003 8:15:00 AM
|
|
|
mcap56
Posts: 617
Joined: October 26, 2002
From: New York, NY
Status: offline
|
I will put in a few words in defense of the much maligned APTA.
To be sure, I think there was discussion about residencies that took place a while back but I don't know where it went. Also, I am not that familiar with what was proposed or discussed if anything was at all, so what I am saying is just a guess.
If you are the APTA and you are looking at increasing standards via residency requirement or changing PT education, I don't think it is much of a choice. With residencies, you must deal with 1000s of hospitals, clinicians, clinics, etc. How could the APTA possible ensure that they are up to standards...even if there were enough quality PTs.....which there aren't. The APTA has much more influence over the PT programs and by changing the requirements for accreditation, can effect change more efficaciously. On that end, the requirements for faculty scholarship are far more rigorous than they were a few years ago.
You can argue that accreditation standards need to go higher. You can also argue that the programs did not need to go to DPT to effect this change. You could further argue, as Drew has, and I would, that the DPT should have been a post-professional degree. With the money being charged, the programs could have been taught by interdisciplinary experts. A radiologist covering radiology and a pharmD covering pharmacology, etc. (I do know programs where this material is covered by the appropriate medical professional however).
Having experienced clinicians in the class would have added much more.....both ways.
But....things didn't play out that way. I think that referrers can still investigate their PTs personally. I don't know if the specialty certification makes one an expert, but it does guarantee a minimal level of competance. More and more PTs are taking the exams. Hopefully, there will an increase in specialists in areas other than sports and ortho.
Best,
mcap
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - October 10, 2003 5:01:00 AM
|
|
|
mcap56
Posts: 617
Joined: October 26, 2002
From: New York, NY
Status: offline
|
This is a great debate. However, I would like to put things in perspective.......
AS a patient in a hospital.....honestly, one of the least significant concerns would be whether my PT recently rotated.
Tens of thousands of people die each year from preventable errors. Most people who review the quality of care in hospitals and in clinics come to some drastic conclusions. A recent study concluded that half of the patients sampled for various diseases did not get the recommended care.
I would be more concerned if I was treated by a new resident (the death rate does actually go up in July). I would be more concerned if my care was being given by a nurses aide or an LPN as opposed to an RN. I would be more concenred if my hospital did not use a computerized prescription system. I would be more concerned about medical professionals not washing their hands between patients (they often don't)!!
This doesn't excuse PTs for their shortcomings. In some cases, it's a real problem. But......it is one among many. PT departments in teaching hospitals usually supervise the newer PTs very carefully. Of course their is no guarantee. But it doesn't seem like there is much of a guarantee of anything in health care.
mcap
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - October 10, 2003 8:41:00 AM
|
|
|
Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1239
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
Status: offline
|
Hold on hold on hold on...we are not talking about death rates simply increasing the educational standards of PT. If I refer for inpatient PT, I don't want an ortho PT in the ICU that is not used to dealing with vent tubing or IV's-o-plenty.
Don't let the TV show "Scrubs" bother you, residents aren't retarded or constant erections...they are in post-doctoral training (more than any other profession)and are more meticulous to the details than most attendings (Hell they challenge me every day). (if you are gonna worry about someone, worry about the PA with only a BS and no postgraduate training).
My intent has been to change the emphasis of training PT's and in the same breath create more efficient and successful therapists by mandating certification in specialties...similar to medicine.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - October 10, 2003 9:56:00 PM
|
|
|
goodlooks58
Posts: 421
Joined: October 21, 2002
From: CA
Status: offline
|
Yes, Doc just as you worry about PAs "with a BS and no post-graduate traning" so also we as PTs worry about Massage Therapists, ATC, Naturopaths, DCs etc... It is very easy to sit on the other side and comment: "Let's all work together and play together and we will all live happily afterall". Or make comments like: What is wrong in letting an ATC treat an acute injury with some madlities?! Moreover about PAs: I have met a few very brilliant and astute PAs compred to some MDs-who sometimes I wonder how did they make it through medical school?!
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - October 11, 2003 5:58:00 AM
|
|
|
Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1239
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
Status: offline
|
My point with ATC's came from working with them daily as they really do practice well independently (on the field they are fantastic) and limiting the use of modalities is based in nothing more than politics. Everyone becomes defensive with other "less qualified" individuals encroach upon their "territory"...I would have disdain for LMT's and DC's if I was a practicing PT also...heck, look at personal trainers and how they have moved past the publics perception of PT's as THE fitness professionals. I agree with you. My personal belief is that credibility is gained via structured and rigorous post graduate education (not through CME's or undergraduate education)...and the profession needs to grasp that idea. Also, as a side, I have worked with wonderful Physician Assistants (usually the ones with EMT or nursing backgrounds)...my brief point was regarding the "new generation" that now graduate without cadaver lab, with BS's, from generic schools that just popped up and PA's without previous medical experience (they give the good ones bad names).
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 20, 2003 4:29:00 PM
|
|
|
slp
Posts: 8
Joined: December 19, 2003
From: Kansas City, Missouri USA
Status: offline
|
Just to clarify something. There are chiropractic physicians who have post grad or residency training (three years post grad) in neurology, orthopedics, pediatrics, nutrition, and more. There are many programs like this.
Secondly, I know of many multidisciplinary clinics around the country that were started by chiropractic physicians that recruited and have MD's, DO's, PT's, OT's, rehab docs, nurses and more. The two that I know of are one chiro doc who is board certified in neurology and the other in clinical orthopedics and pain managment.
So to say that chiro's do not dive into peds, neuro, ortho, etc. is wrong. I know for a fact that both of the docs that I talk about above are AWESOME and they know there stuff. They are both good a diagnosing and treating patients within their fields, neuro or ortho. They also know when they really cannot do anything and all they have to do is refer them down the hall.
[This message has been edited by slp (edited December 21, 2003).]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 21, 2003 12:24:00 PM
|
|
|
Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
|
Mr. SLP,
With all due respect, you're not yet a chiropractor. In fact, you don't even start chiropractic school for another two weeks, and yet in other posts you've stated that you have, " been told that my skills are right up there with the residents and attendings."
You're going to have to jump through a few more hoops both academically and in public forum before making statements like, "Sure, I had to work hard for this and STUDY A LOT," when in truth you've not yet begun to work and haven't yet begun your professional training.
It's good to have vision, it's good to have mentors to look up too, but claim your situation as such. It's your dream, it's your hope --- it is not, however, your experience.
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, PhD, DPT(c)
Physical Therapist
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball PT PhD (edited December 21, 2003).]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 21, 2003 5:45:00 PM
|
|
|
slp
Posts: 8
Joined: December 19, 2003
From: Kansas City, Missouri USA
Status: offline
|
Dear Mr. Andrew,
I know you think that you have all of the answers, but you really know nothing about me.
I HAVE HAD TO STUDY AND WORK HARD. I HAVE EXPERIENCE, NOT JUST DREAMS. I HAVE INTERNED, AND YES THEY WERE CALLED INTERNSHIPS, AT KUMC, NYU - DEPT. OF NEUROSURGERY, UNC - DEPT. OF NEUROSURGERY, MAYO CLINIC IN ROCHESTER, IN WHICH I DID AUTOPSIES, WROTE THE REPORTS WITH THE RESIDENTS, HELPED WITH CARDIOVASCULAR GROSSING OF SPECIMENS, ETC.
I have gotten my hands "wet." To tell me that I really do not have exeprience, but just dreams offends me beyond what you can imagine. Below is a link to a story about me in my college paper. It shows me scrubbing and working with Dr. Wilksinson, an neurosurgeon at KUMC.
I have helped in operations, even though that really should not be said......I am not lying. A neurosurgeon in Topeka, not naming him, allowed ME to drill a burr hole and cut the dura under HIS supervision during an emergency subdural operation. I was VERY THANKFUL to him for allowing me to do that because he put his career on the line to let me know he had the confidence in me and to show me that my skills ARE RIGHT UP THERE WITH RESIDENTS AND ATTENDINGS. I have been told that time after time and I take it as a very nice compliment.
So don't tell me that I have no experience when I actually do. Let's see, 270 autopsies that I have assisted in and helped perform, pathology, neurosurgery, cardiology, the list goes on. I can send you my CV if you would like.
You don't know me. But read the article and you will find out that I am more than JUST DREAMS. I am considering chiropractic school or medical school, both of which I have gotten into. I admit that I jumped the gun with saying I was a DC student. Sorry about that. And by the way, I have had to do my far share of studying to understand the fields that I have interned in. Plus, most of that was done on my own time during high school and college. Oh, and one last thing. I may not have the titled behind my name at this point in time, which still makes me a "student", but I still have had to work hard for the knowledge that I have now.
Here is the site you can go to for the story on me.
[URL=http://www.kstatecollegian.com/issues/v104/fa/n028/news/cam.autopsy.evenson.html]www.kstatecollegian.com/issues/v104/fa/n028/news/cam.autopsy.evenson.html[/URL]
[This message has been edited by slp (edited December 21, 2003).]
[This message has been edited by slp (edited December 21, 2003).]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 21, 2003 6:57:00 PM
|
|
|
Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1239
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
Status: offline
|
Stop. Stop. Stop.
You are either 1. confused with what has been said to you regarding your skills 2. misunderstand the term "internship" 3. all of the above.
I SINCERELY believe your heart is in the right place. I honestly believe you have strong desire.
I also believe you gotta slow down.
Many people are called interns...you are NOT an intern in the "medical" sense. Perhaps you ARE an intern in the sense of a "pathology technician". Perhaps your skills regarding the technical aspects of disection are excellent. That does NOT make you on par with residents or interns...rather it means you can disect and perform the technical tasks of autopsy at their level. That is a HUGE accomplishment and I commend your performance.
But remember that you are NOT a resident or intern in medicine. You are confusing the lingo and making big errors.
Also, remember that DC's are NOT held to the same standards as DO/MD's, do NOT take the same specialty certification boards, do NOT complete specialty residencies...in other words a DC pediatric specialist is in NO WAY similar to a Pediatrician.
Once again these are honest mistakes, but before you are taken to the point of no return...you MUST have a clear understanding of what you are saying.
Please take my words to heart. Understand I am NOT being mean, rather attempting to redirect your thinking.
Wags, DO, PT
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 21, 2003 7:22:00 PM
|
|
|
slp
Posts: 8
Joined: December 19, 2003
From: Kansas City, Missouri USA
Status: offline
|
I completely understand where you and him ar coming from. I know that I am not a resident or and intern in the medical definition. I was just saying that while doing these different things I was called and "intern" by the DOCTORS (MD's) that I was working under.
Also, my skills are not just related to dissection or surgical procedures. My skills are also related to clinic. While at UNC - Dept. of Neurosurgery, I was asked the chairman about a specific MRI film of a patient, I diagnosed it correctly. He was very happy about that. He was an MD neurosurgeon. I have also been asked questions during clinic about a disease process that I diagnosed correctly.
I understand that I am not in medical school or chiropractic school yet. I haven't even commited to one as of yet. I know where both of you are coming from. I just telling you what the doctors that I have worked with have told me.
AND YES, DC'S HAVE SUPSPECIALTY BOARDS. THERE IS RADIOLOGY, PEDS, ORTHOPEDICS, SPORTS MEDICINE, AND MORE. I understand that there is a difference b/w an MD ped and a DC ped, I was just saying that they do have subspecialty boards in chiropractics. The most compeititive is the radiology residency. In fact, Dr. Yoschum in Colorado is well respected by the allopathic world. He is a DC with a DACBR (Diplomate in Chiropractic Radiology). He did a three year residency in this area. He has written several radiology boooks and has his own diagnostic imagining center. Plus he is now a professor of skeletal radiology at the University of Colorado and Denver - School of Medicine.
Just look this programs up on the web. I wouldn't tell many DC's that they have no subspecialty boards when they actually do. Sure, it may not be what MD's have, but whatever subspecialty training PT's have is in NO WAY COMPARED TO MD's or DO's either. Each field is unique in its own way.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 22, 2003 12:56:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
slp,
I think you are a perfect candidate for chiropractic school.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 22, 2003 2:54:00 AM
|
|
|
Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
|
Mr. SLP,
First of all, I hold a PhD and I'm a mere 3 courses away from a clinical doctorate at Harvard, so that's Dr. Ball to you --- I'm quite sure I've earned it. Second of all, I am simply pointing out, as Dr. Wagner did, that you simply don't know what you don't know. You've not started your professional education.
I too enjoyed time in the OR as a high school volunteer, and logged many hours over a 4 year period volunteering for the best of the best of Baltimore/Hopkins opthamology, neurosurgery, and skeletal dysplasia. That didn't make me an intern, and it wasn't professional education.
Like Dr. Wagner, am pleased to know that students like yourself are taking initiative to expose yourself to volunteer experiences that will help enrich your eventual professional education --- it's a rare thing and you ARE to be commended. It will make you a better student, and it will expose you to the culture of healthcare that too often is overlooked and not discussed in professional education curricula.
That said, the fact remains that at best, you're nothing more than a student. A student with many volunteer experiences that other students won't have --- but a student nevertheless. As such, you don't talk from a position of professional experience because you've got at least 3 years before achieving the status of even novice new graduate. There are others on this forum with professional degrees, academic degrees, and experience that far surpasses yours (and in many cases, your career goals) so watch your language, check your respect, and don't portray yourself as something that you're not.
Drew
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball PT PhD (edited December 22, 2003).]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 22, 2003 5:28:00 AM
|
|
|
Ron
Posts: 105
Joined: January 8, 2001
Status: offline
|
This thread has been very enjoyable to follow. Lightens up my day. Perhaps SLP can star in the sequel of "Catch Me if You Can". The story of Frank Abagnale Jr.
On a serious note..SLP, respect is earned,it does not matter if you are a DC, MD, PT or the local street sweeper. In the workplace, the outcome of your effort, will determine your worth.
Much to the dismay of many students I have mentored ( I have been in this 25 years+) it really is NOT about them, but those they have chosen to serve (patients).... Very humbling..
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 22, 2003 6:46:00 AM
|
|
|
slp
Posts: 8
Joined: December 19, 2003
From: Kansas City, Missouri USA
Status: offline
|
I understand that I am nothing more than a student. I stated that in my last reply. I KNOW I AM NOTHING MORE THAN A STUDENT.......SO YOU UNDERSTAND.
Sorry if I am coming off to strong. However, to tell me that some surpass my career goals, well what if I was to tell you that I have not yet decided which school to attend. Chiro or Med school. What if I told you that I was leaning towards going to AUC (American University of the Caribbean - School of Medicine), a school that is filled with people who have DESIRE AND THE HEART TO BE DOCTORS. What if I told you that my career goals were to become an MD and go into neurosurgery or forensic pathology? I can tell you this, that if I was to choose that route, which I am almost sure that I will. If that is the case, I can tell you this. My career goals surpass you and anyone who is NOT AN MD or DO. So don't tell me that I am surpassed when you don't know my true dreams, or what it really takes to become a forensic pathologist with a subspecialty in neuropathology. Or even neurosurgery.
Last, sorry if I come across to strong. Maybe someday after medical school, we will meet in the professional world.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 22, 2003 7:50:00 AM
|
|
|
slp
Posts: 8
Joined: December 19, 2003
From: Kansas City, Missouri USA
Status: offline
|
One last thing. You are not a true doctor. Nor is anyone with a PhD or a DPT or a DC. You many be able to diagnose, but in reality you are on the same level as a chiro. I have heard this from many DPT's, they feel that there profession is on the same level.
You do not have the expertise to diagnose like an MD does. So don't act like you are a doctor or are better than anyone because of a PhD in health care management. As you said, it is to market yourself, that is it. Plus, if you are a DPT, you are still a Physical Therapist, nothing more.
As for me, well chiro school is not for me. I would be letting down all of the MD's I have worked with in the past if I didn't go to medical school. At this point in time it looks like AUC is the one. More to come on that.
So, once I get my MD and my training behind me, I am in no doubt that my knowledge and expertise will FAR SURPASS YOURS OR ANYONE IN THE HEALTHCARE FIELD THAT IS NOT AN MD OR A DO. Thank you.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 22, 2003 8:28:00 AM
|
|
|
Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
|
Go ahead and talk that trash to your professors, I'm sure it will get you far in your academic life. Check your history. PhD's were the FIRST doctors. I'm not a physician and never claimed to be, so don't twist my words to suit your argument.
As far as my clinical degree is concerned, even after completion of a DPT, I agree with most of what you said. DPT's, DC's, PharmD's, OD's, DDS's, or any other non-medical clinical doctor are not equipted to diagnose beyond the level of a mid-level --- even those with specialized training in specific areas.
By the way (and this isn't intended as an insult), check with some AUC grads before going there. A lot of off-shore grads aren't happy with the unexpected hurdles they had to jump through in order to practice in the US. There is a program in Antigua, for example, that will train medical physicians out of nurses, PT's, DC's --- the catch is that most US states don't recognize the school to the extent to allow the grad to sit for reciprocity. Most end up being physicians for one or two weeks each year in a 3rd world tropical paradise. I'm not knocking that, by the way --- it's not a bad way to get into doing relief medical work for the Red Cross or WHO. If your intent is to be a medical physician in the US, however, I suggest that you ask some more questions before jumping in. Most state schools offer comparable (of if you do an MD/PhD . . . free tuition) if money is the problem.
Finally, you're miscontruing my original statement anyhow. The point was that there are MD's and DO's here, who clinically surpass DC's and DPT's on the site. There are PhD's here that surpass MD's and DO's in terms of their specific area (be it neuroanatomy, or as the case with me, management). It's not like the latter is a big feat though, most clinicians of any profession learn management by a long series of trial and error. Anyway, I'm not sure what your "surpass" point is.
I've got patients to treat . . . more on this later.
Drew
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 22, 2003 9:23:00 AM
|
|
|
slp
Posts: 8
Joined: December 19, 2003
From: Kansas City, Missouri USA
Status: offline
|
Sorry, I owe you an apology. Maybe I am overreacting to everything said to me. Please take back what I said before and lets move on.
As for AUC, yeah I have looked into that. I can get licensed here in Missouri or in Kansas. A medical examiner that I work with went to AUC and had no problem gettin her license in Kansas or Missouri. The one frustrating thing I have heard from AUC students that I have talked to is the fact that they were promised clinicals in the US when the had to end up going to the UK for their cores. To them, they ended up loving it because I guess you can get more hands on in the UK then here. Then they returned for their electives here in the US. So, I am trying to weigh out my options. The truth is my MCAT was low, which will hamper my efforts for trying to get into a school here in the US.
I agree with you. People are experts in their own field. Like my Dad who is a Civil Engineer and a national consultant on the prophilograph system for smooth pavement surfaces along highways. He is considered an expert and people from all over the country come to talk to him about this. A PhD in neuroscience or pain management knows more about that than any MD or DO. So yes, I understand what you are saying.
Again, I am sorry. I have trouble taking constructive criticism. That is my fault and has been a problem of mine for a long time. Something I need to work on because I tend to go off the deep end with it.
Last, is there really anything wrong with the chiropractic profession, and I mean the ones who REALLY treat NMS pain ETHICALLY and CONSERVATIVELY, not the whole philosophy behind straight chiro's. I feel the guys who really know there stuff and are good at it, the ones who are not straight chiro's deserve a chance.
Again, sorry.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 22, 2003 10:33:00 AM
|
|
|
Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
|
Agreed. Accepted. Moving on.
I think that where PT's and DC's get into tizzy is where some DC's claim to treat NMS "ethically" and spread beyond the spine into rehab, nutrition, or non-spinal care on the basis of expanding education . . . while others in their profession take swipes at MD's, PT's, etc. for using the same argument in conduting spinal manipulative therapy.
If chiropractic, as a group, could pick one philosophy and stick with it . . . then no . . . I don't think there would be much problem with those types. Unfortunately, the "we own manipulative therapy" crowd ruins interdisciplinary harmony.
If, on the other hand, strict battle lines are going to be drawn, PT's need to stay out of manipulation and DC's need to stay out of rehab and nutrition.
There's nothing wrong with any individual practitioner, per se . . . but the situation en masse, is very, very wrong.
Drew
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- - December 22, 2003 4:22:00 PM
|
|
|
nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
Status: offline
|
I have followed this thread through, and have learned quite a lot about PTs and DCs et al in the USA.
There is certainly some mild antagonism in Oz between the two professions, but it mostly stays underground.
Each earn the title of physio/chiro in the same length of time and at the same universities. A physiotherapist cannot call her/himself a manipulative physio/therapist until they have done a 1 year post grads manips.course. Some chiros advertise that they practise 'physiotherapy' but all they mean is they dish out some exercises and do a bit of electrotherapy. The physio associations hope to prevent their using the noun 'physiotherapy'.
Each profession has its unique skills, irrespective of the overlap problem. After all, physiotherapy borrowed extensively from osteopathic techniques (Maitland et al). It would be enormously beneficial if the two could combine somehow (??) and then the needs of the patient would be better met.
Drew, I totally agree that physios should stay out of manips and the chiros leave rehab processes and nutrition alone. I would also like to see psychologists leave relaxation/pelvic floor alone too!!!
But the whole division of skills is quite silly when the big picture is observed. It is expensive for a patient and the country to have to access PT, OT, chiro, speech pathology, podiatry and psychology separately.
There is now talk of area specialists - ie, one health professional takes care of all aspects of children under, say, five years - and that includes speech, OT and physio. Same goes for other fields of paediatrics, neurosciences, orthopaedics, etc. Sounds cumbersome, but seems fairer.
It is quite true that the only 'ridgy-didge' (Oz for genuine) Doctors are PhDs. They spend an extra three years minimum gaining that privilege. Medicos, chiros, vets and so on 'get' the title after four to five undergrad years. Which, in my mind is not fair...but what is fair in the battlefield of health professionals?
Nari
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
0.125
|
Printable Version
All Forums >> [RehabEdge Forum] >> Open Forum >> Re: Chiropractic vs PT as a profession- 
