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Re: If you want to be disgusted by other professionals practicing "PT" read this.
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Re: If you want to be disgusted by other professionals ... - September 30, 2003 11:49:00 PM
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goodlooks58
Posts: 425
Joined: October 21, 2002
From: CA
Status: offline
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Shill: My exact sentiments! I wonder why so many so called: decent, ethical Chiros wasting their time typing away on a PT Forum! What are they trying to prove here?! Chiros: We all know your game. So no matter what you try to say (the Scanners of the world) you are not going to change the PTs views about chiros. Doing well as a PT for 18 years in a town traditionally ruled by Chiros, I have seen every low life scam used on innocent patients. I wonder how well you guys sleep at night.
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Re: If you want to be disgusted by other professionals ... - October 1, 2003 6:51:00 AM
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Scanner
Posts: 71
Joined: March 17, 2003
Status: offline
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I sleep very, very well at night, except for some primary snoring. In fact, I went to a PT clinic for my sleep disorder, they did a $2000 overnight test, and told me I snore loud, something my wife could have told me for $1.99.
How do you sleep at night?
How do you sleep at night when your average worker's comp. bill for LBP is $1200 and my average is $450?
You're on to us.
Well, get this, we're on to you too. As I have said, your day is coming.
Anyway, apparently I touched a raw nerve as evidenced by your emotional ad hominum attacks.
There was nothing condescending about what I wrote - you really do have a Napolean complex. Yes, it is possible if you "zig instead of zag" you waste the patients time, and consume valuable healthcare resources.
This is a tad different than killing/maiming the patient (like with manipulation that you PT's are so always ready to point out), no?
Point is MD's can do PT with little risk to the patient other than waste their time.
Swallow your lumps and get some therapy (the mental kind).
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Re: If you want to be disgusted by other professionals ... - October 1, 2003 8:47:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
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Scanner: My exact sentiments! I see so many PT's in my area raping the system at $300+a visit and then they love to point the finger at us about making patients come forever. Hell I've seen PT's trying to sell maintenance care and even seen posts on this board about converting patients to "wellness" or "maintenance care". Yet when a chiropractor does it, it is somehow a scam, but if you do it, it is okay. The local rehab place in town charges $59 for hot packs. What a joke! I hope you guys can sleep at night. In my area the PT's are whoring themselves to the MD's for referrals. It's like watching the **** drug reps when they come in. Listen, your survival is based upon medical referrals. Be nice to the MD's before they start having there medical assistants perform therapy in their offices or even worse for you; send their patients to a DC. Chiropractors have survived for decades without any referrals from medical doctors. See how long you will last without MD referral machine. Direct access doesn't mean didly without insurance reimbursement. Cash? That won't work as no one will pay $300 plus a visit.
Hell, I even see the private practice PT's here in town pimping themselves to the attorney's and running PI and work comp ads in the local newspaper. Goodlooks58 points the finger and yet does the same thing. Believe me; you are not going to change the DC's views about physical therapists.
Scope of practice all depends on the state. DC in my opinion has a larger scope of practice than PT, besides doing x-rays or lab's.
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Re: If you want to be disgusted by other professionals ... - October 1, 2003 9:01:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
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Before everyone jumps on Backtalk, let me say that while I disagree with his tone and a few of his assumptions, that I basically agree with him.
PT's DO overcharge for unskilled treatment modalities. PT's ARE working the maintenance care and "wellness" or "maintenance care" angle. What Backtalk doesn't seem to get (or maybe he does and it's lots in translation), is that what a PT means by this is converting to cash basis --- not billing insurance for maitenance care and then trying to scam insurance into thinking it's anything different. Although we both use the word "maintanence" let's not confuse that we really are talking about two different things. Perhaps, for the sake of clarity, we should distinguish between "wellness care" and "converting to cash basis." Otherwise we'll all just get confused and irritated for no reason.
I can't speak for other PT's, but I'm not whoring for MD referals. I'm taking patients as portal of entry unless the insurance company mandates that the patient see their PCP first. Frankly, it would be no different in that respect if I were a neurologist or orthopedic surgeon. Don't confuse specialist status with MD subordination.
I don't need MD referals to survive, and I speak for many other PT's in saying that. They're nice, and a great suppliment, but if that all got choked off, I'd still get 50% of my caseload off the street. I'd just have to go out hard-core marketing again for the portal-of-entry patient. That said, I LIKE my specialist status, and I LIKE the fact that a PA or family practice doc can refer to me for neuromusculoskeletal diagnostics and not take the HMO hit of refering to a medical specialist. DC's simply aren't used that way, and it's just one example of an area where my "scope" (whatever the hell that means) is "larger" (whatever the hell that means) than a DC's --- exhempting x-ray and lab work that, frankly, if I ask for I'll get anyhow.
You say, "Believe me; you are not going to change the DC's views about physical therapists." I ask, why would I care what a DC thinks? They're insignificant to mainstream heatlhcare.
"Scope of practice all depends on the state." I agree. "DC in my opinion has a larger scope of practice than PT, besides doing x-rays or lab's." --- We'll have to agree to disagree on that, but I would be interested in some specific examples of what you mean by that.
Drew
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Re: If you want to be disgusted by other professionals ... - October 1, 2003 9:05:00 AM
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Shill
Posts: 1096
Joined: February 13, 2003
From: Madison WI USA
Status: offline
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Scan man,
How did you end up at a PT clinic for a sleep disorder? Couldnt you have ordered this test for yourself, what with your HUGE scope of practice and all....
And if you did, why would you order it at a PT clinic? Go to a recognized sleep disorder clinic. What were you thinking?
Incidently, its Napoleon.
Could you enlighten those of us who realize latin is a dead language, by defining "ad hominum?"
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Re: If you want to be disgusted by other professionals ... - October 1, 2003 9:28:00 AM
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Scanner
Posts: 71
Joined: March 17, 2003
Status: offline
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[QUOTE]Scan man,
How did you end up at a PT clinic for a sleep disorder? Couldnt you have ordered this test for yourself, what with your HUGE scope of practice and all.... [/QUOTE]
I don't know. A local huge PT outfit has a sleep clinic. Hooked me up with wires, videotaped me, and said I have primary snoring. (In all fairness, they also said I had no apnea . . .)
And no, no doctor, MD or DC, can order tests on themselves in NJ from what I understand (at least the insurance won't reimburse for it).
[QUOTE]
And if you did, why would you order it at a PT clinic? Go to a recognized sleep disorder clinic. What were you thinking? [/QUOTE]
I don't know what the doctor was thinking. It was a recognized sleep disorder clinic. I figure if PT's can do it, maybe I'll open one up. I can operate a videocamera, pay a chucklehead to interpret the brainwaves, sounds like a good racket. . .
[QUOTE]
Incidently, its Napoleon. [/QUOTE]
Typo.
[QUOTE]
Could you enlighten those of us who realize latin is a dead language, by defining "ad hominum?" [/QUOTE]
Argumentum ad hominum (means argument cast at the man). It is a fallacy of logic in a debate, a sort of "I cry foul" in an argument.
It makes me sound smart even when I am not ;-).
[URL=http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html]http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html[/URL]
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Re: If you want to be disgusted by other professionals ... - October 1, 2003 3:04:00 PM
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coloradojulie
Posts: 413
Joined: November 10, 2002
From: colorado usa
Status: offline
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Ahhh...where to begin....such arguments fraught with generalities. WHATEVER...comes to mind, but that is where all of this talk usually ends up from both sides...and it doesn't seem like we're done bagging on each other yet.
1. Direct access: Interesting. Blue Cross Blue shield and some of the HMOs in the area, as of now, no longer require physician referral for PT reimbursement. Typically they are on line with medicare in that other insurers follow suit...do it really is only a matter of time before the cost cutting strategies eliminate the middle man and PTs get direct access. And I concede, the DPT may be a good thing when this happens. (score one for DPTpro).
2. $59 dollar hot packs...very interesting...in my state, medicare does not pay for hotpacks...I can try and bill $159.00 and will never get paid anything. As such, no other companies including most work comp pay for it either...
3. I could bill $300.00 a visit, but alas no one would pay me...meaning the insurers...our average collection for four CPT codes in our state is $95.00 per one hour session. And we can only bill for one hour unless we get special permission from the utilization review committees.
4. Whoring to Docs...well i never actually thought that anyone thought that lunch we had was solicitation of the sexual kind...but you have to admire a good salesmen...
5. Harm...I guess it depends on your definition of harm. Would you feel harmed if you paid $500 bucks to a mechanic who told you he could fix your car, when in fact he never even went to mechanic school but had listened to those guys on the radio a couple of times that tell you what this noise means etc? I might feel harmed. I guess I would rather make sure I am seeing someone qualified to perform the services I am seeking. Kill ya? Nah...we seldom can kill people with ab exercises, make them better, not likely, and that just sucks, cause they thought you could and put their faith in you and you failed them...they made $50 bucks, but I feel cheated.
6. Advertising: Fundamental to marketing I believe. And we all try really hard to make people understand what we do, how good we are and how bad everyone else is....as subtly and politically correctly as possible.
I like to practice the Field of Dreams marketing plan...if you're good, they will come...and they do, and even pay cash for it!!
This is a dead horse and my god it is mutilated....lets stop beating it, unless you are really open minded for change, other wise we'll just get mad and start typing really really fast (watch those repetitive strain injuries) and mutter profanities as we attack each other in this forum.
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