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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 22, 2003 1:45:00 PM
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NYDC67
Posts: 49
Joined: December 19, 2002
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Just read Craig Liebenson's work. No need to go into detail. I believe you are familiar with his book.
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 24, 2003 1:21:00 PM
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rehabdoc
Posts: 51
Joined: March 17, 2003
From: Butte, MT US
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95%, 50%, 5%.....
Where are you getting your numbers Enlightened? LOL.
I think you need to re-read Craig's book with regard to manipulation. Sure, he discusses it as a passive modality in that a pt., if functional testing (per Janda, et. al.) suggests necessary, should be transitioned into an active model of care. But, his "first-line" of treatment (recommendations) is joint manipulation (contraindications aside).
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 27, 2003 2:54:00 PM
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Bournephysio
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From: Calgary
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I guess I should post a reply to this.
As a physio I have learned to manipulate from physiotherapists not chiropractors. There is a long history of physios and manipulation. We have a lot more than three techniques and yes I do use many of them depending on how the patient presents. We do not use the million dollar roll. I was taught that this was not a particularly safe manipulation because of the large lever arms used. Our cervical manipulations are designed to stress the vertebral artery as little as possible.
Goodlooks, do you realize that there is a risk of stroke with cervical manipulation? I hope that that chiropractor was not showing you a dangerous technique. I can't imagine him showing a very specific technique on only a two day course.
Doug
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 27, 2003 3:16:00 PM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
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From: PA
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Does it take longer to learn a more specific technique? Ha ha...
Anyway, I say if you are trained properly in it and it's all within your scope of practice, do it.
Just as PT has a long history of using manipulation, you can say chiro's have a long history of using certain aspects of PT such as exercise therapy, heat, ice, elec stim, etc. As early as 1904 chiros broke away from the founders of chiropractic to start their own school incorporating those other procedures. I get the feeling some people think that this is a new trend in chiropractic. Not so.
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 27, 2003 3:33:00 PM
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rehabdoc
Posts: 51
Joined: March 17, 2003
From: Butte, MT US
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Can I take a poll (non-scientific of course; I am a chiropractor for goodness sake. LOL)?
How many here have ever been in a chiropractic office?
Remember, what you hear from pts. when they see you after care in a chiropractic office is most likely biased, in that they had a negative experience (i.e., why are they in your office?) The same goes for my office. If I based my opinions of PT's on pt. complaints, I would think that all PT's know is to put a hot pack and some ultrasound on somebody. I know that's not the truth.
With regard to 3 techniques? Sorry to burst bubbles, but I know a few more than 3. As far as "your" technique designed to stress the VA as little as possible? Sorry, but that's the way it should be! The "million dollar roll"? Don't know what it is since I haven't made a million bucks yet! LOL. I know my lumbar/SI manip uses a short lever advantage.
This whole thread reminds me of the "My dad can beat up your dad" attitude. LOL.
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 27, 2003 9:21:00 PM
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Bournephysio
Posts: 585
Joined: April 25, 2002
From: Calgary
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Touchiba, Rehabdoc,
My post was not meant to be anitchiro in the slightest. Goodlooks post made it sound like PTs are reliant on chiros to learn manipulation and that a couple of days is enough to learn how to manipulate. I wanted to dispell that. I wasn't trying to suggest that chiros only knew three techniques.
If the chiro (or pt or osteopath) was teaching a "million dollar roll" for a lumbar manip I imagine he would likely be teaching a full rotation manip for the cervical spine. If someone thinks that it is safe to manip after two days, wouldn't they be more likely to use dangerous techniques?
Doug
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 28, 2003 5:58:00 AM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
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From: PA
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In regards to the "million dollar roll", if done properly, it can be rather specific. I find it to be even more specific than a spinous contact in fact. It is all in the setup and speed. If one is not good at side posture adjusting, I would admit it could be a little more dangerous than alternate methods of lumbar mobilization. Like I said though, if done properly it can be very effective and comfortable to the patient.
Also, no offense taken. I'm in the chiro profession and my mom's a PTA, so I get to hear opinions from both sides of the fence. Some are warranted, some are not. As long as we come out learning more about each other in the end, there's no harm in discussing prejudices.
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 28, 2003 12:11:00 PM
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DC_Student
Posts: 24
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From: California
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I am agreeing with Enlightened DC here.
In my view, it would be best if PTs did manipulation and the chiropractic profession were altogether dissolved.
With the failure of subluxation theory, the invalidity of assessment techniques, etc.,Chiropractic has lost all specificity.
There is no need to have a seperate profession for it and the population at large would benefit most if there no chiropractors at all. They create dependency, overtreat, are given to all sorts of unethical practices, and the majority of Chiropractors, in my experience are scientifically illiterate.
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 28, 2003 3:14:00 PM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
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From: PA
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Create dependency?
Nevermind, this is not the place to get into it...
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 28, 2003 4:39:00 PM
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flexion
Posts: 151
Joined: August 7, 2002
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There isn't really much constructive here to respond too. I think I'll just comment in general:
Debate the training required not the profession that performs manipulation.
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 29, 2003 12:19:00 PM
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NYDC67
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I think DC Student and Enlightened DC are the same person.
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 29, 2003 12:27:00 PM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
Joined: November 11, 2002
From: PA
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You are correct in one respect, we should push for integrated healthcare and get everyone working as a team. Many hospitals are already moving in this direction.
In 1998, 4775 hospitals were surveyed by the AHA and 215 of them responded that they were offering chiropractic services within their hospital or a subsidiary.
The Bethesda Naval Hospital and the hospital at Camp LeJeune, NC has their own chiro departments. So far, surveys have shown the experience to be very positive for patients.
Dr. Wagner, if you ar following this thread, how would you feel if you had a DC or a DPT to refer your musculoskeletal cases? That way instead of getting bogged down with the diagnosis and manual treatment of these problems, you could focus more on life threatening cases and internal disorders that are better treated with meds.
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Re: vertebral manipulation for PT - March 30, 2003 8:31:00 AM
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flexion
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Touch, started a new thread on ChiroWeb board RE: integration.
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