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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 20, 2003 12:45:00 PM
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swoodard23
Posts: 36
Joined: March 18, 2002
From: Abilene
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All I have to say is when it comes to manual therapy, Stanley Paris P.T., better than most DC's
[This message has been edited by swoodard23 (edited January 20, 2003).]
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 20, 2003 12:54:00 PM
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function
Posts: 29
Joined: October 5, 2002
Status: offline
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I studied for a year with the LACC rehab program. I have studied with Gary Gray and David Tiberio and their chain reaction explosion seminars. I have trained one on one with physical therapists trained in the Ola Grimsby methods as well as Stanely Paris
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 20, 2003 4:38:00 PM
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flexion
Posts: 151
Joined: August 7, 2002
Status: offline
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Colorado:
I just completed a fairly lengthy description of my rehab training. After thought I deleted it. Based on the level of collaboration I've seen this board you all can assume that I learned manipulation for 4 years in school who took a weekend course in rehab. If you want open discussion then your profession is going to have to act appropriately.
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 20, 2003 7:02:00 PM
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coloradojulie
Posts: 413
Joined: November 10, 2002
From: colorado usa
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I apologize if my actions seem inappropriate... I sincerely am curious as to your rehab training...don't delete it...share! I want to know what the rehab cirriculum is... I have heard of such courses as "how to maintain your patients" but nothing rehab oriented. Please stop being so defensive.
As far as the DC rehab guy you mentioned, I have never heard of him...perhaps he is excellent...does he have any publications?
Maybe we should have an old fashioned duel?? Case study and we all (without looking anything up in books or manuals) share what we think it is, and what we would do and why?? Maybe we can collaborate and learn from each other instead of sticking our tongues out! Grow up and discuss this like an adult, swallow your ego and convince us we are wrong and you guys are rehab gods!!
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 20, 2003 7:20:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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I know Craig, that is to say we've chatted by e-mail from time to time.
Drew
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 20, 2003 7:23:00 PM
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flexion
Posts: 151
Joined: August 7, 2002
Status: offline
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Again, are you physiotherapists so blind that you can't see how basically rude you act towards those chiropractors who post here? This whole thread began with utter non-sense and now I'm the one that should act like an adult?
The *only* cooperative threads I have seen on this board between DCs and PTs were created by me. And they attempted exactly what you describe. They were the "Cooperative Case Study" threads and you can look at them yourself. Even when I attempted this PTs jumped in, completely off topic, and attempted self-distruct them. I don't see any reason to think any of you want to collaborate. I'd rather focus my rehab time with physicians anyway since they send me patients.
[URL=http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/Forum25/HTML/000583.html]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/Forum25/HTML/000583.html[/URL] [URL=http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/Forum25/HTML/000597.html]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/Forum25/HTML/000597.html[/URL]
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 20, 2003 10:01:00 PM
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Bournephysio
Posts: 585
Joined: April 25, 2002
From: Calgary
Status: offline
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Wow, I stop posting for a while and all hell breaks loose
Flexion: You were probably right not to post your training in rehab. It is very hard to compare one education to another based on hours, number of courses, or who taught the course. I doubt many people here would recognize the names of people I have trained with. I understand your frustration with this thread, but remember that the posts here represent individual therapist not the profession as a whole. There is a lot of bad blood between our professions and its going to take a lot of patience to get rid of it. You posted about the Canadian orthopractic manual therapy association on chiroweb. You said that it hasn’t taken off because of its association with certain anti-chiropractic people. I think that chiropractors joining would be very good for both professions. It would take some bite out of the anti-chiropractic people (how can you be anti-chiropractic but support an association with chiropractors?). As well it would allow our professions to interact better. I appreciated your posts. I thought the case studies went pretty well.
Drew: I thought that you weren’t going to stir the pot anymore now that you are a faculty member. In your first post is that you mentioned some prominent problems in Chiropractic. The problem was your tone and that you attributed them to the vast majority if not all chiropractors. I’m not sure how you came to this idea that only PTs own therapeutic exercise and Chiros own manipulation. Are you trying to limit chiros to a treatment you feel is ineffective and thus don’t mind restricting PTs from manipulating? If you think that we stole manipulation from them, you are sadly mistaken. You might want to look into how physios practice in other countries. I am sure that some chiropractors are good with therapeutic exercise and I know that some PTs are pretty bad.
In a perfect world, anyone who was qualified should be able to use the treatment. In the real world we have to worry about how we are going to decide if someone is qualified. It is easier to limit treatments to specific professions who have a standard education and gone through standardized testing and licensing. This leads to the turf wars we see. I have no problem competing with chiros, physios or other professions.
PT school does not qualify someone to be an ergonomist. My first bachelor’s degree was in kinesiology. In that degree I took a few ergonomics courses which I don’t feel qualify me to be an ergonomist. In PT school, I took the only ergonomics course offered (an elective). My kin degree qualifies me to do ergonomics better than does my PT degree. I have seen PTs teach lifting by telling the patient to bend their knees not their back. Because of the size of the weight the patient was forced to hold the weight far away from the body. I have actually seen a PT use a picture of this in an advertisement. Even after I confronted her she couldn’t understand what was wrong with it (hint: look up levers in you first year physics text). Physios have very little training in sound, lighting, temperature, clothing, protective equipment, etc.
Someone said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Whether you are a pt, chiro, or kinesiologist, one or two courses does not make you competent at something. At most you are a technologist, able to do a few basic skills. The problem is you don’t understand the bigger picture. You don’t understand the biases that your approach brings or the alternatives. Most importantly you don’t understand the gaps in your knowledge.
I guess I should stop rambling.
Flexion: stick around. You are a valued member of this forum. You need a thick skin when dealing with PTs if you are a chiro and vice versa. I have felt insulted many a time reading posts over at chiroweb.
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 4:37:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Well said Doug.
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 4:52:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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Doug,
What I've said, and continue to say, is that if Chiro's want to try to restrict PT's from doing manipulation, they shouldn't be surprised when PT's begin to lobby legislatures to restrict them from doing anything but.
I don't have a clear opinion on where that line should be drawn, and you and I clearly disagree on our initial impulses of where it should be drawn --- that's fine, I can live with that.
What neither of us should be allowing, is for chiropractors to use PTA's without a PT around, and for them to attempt to impose a double-standard of "I can do everything you can do (I've had a few weekend courses and it's in the best interest of the patient), but I won't let you do a thing that I can do (because you're not trained, and you can't use the same argument that we used to steal physical therapy from you)."
I'm for collaboration with DC's, if we can reign in the PTA's acting inappropraitely by working for DC's without appropraite and legally mandated PT supervision, and submit them for disciplinary action --- and if PT's and DC's can come to consensus regarding lines of expertise so that we stop turf-raiding each other.
Otherwise, we're in for full competition with chiropractors, and I belive that future DPT's could learn quite a bit from the political savy, marketing skills, and heatlh entertainment flair of chiropractors. DC's could learn what it truly means to be evidence-based and within the scope of mainstream healthcare. I'd hate to have either profession loose sight of that.
Despite the way that most chiropractors read my initial post, it was actually an objective critique and compliment of the profession of chiropractic. Before any bridges can be built, however, more than the majority of chiropractors need a strong dose of reality so as to begin that collaborative discussion from a basis of equal footing upon the emerging clinical doctoring playing field upon which we both stand.
Drew
Finally, I didn't say that ergonomics was a PT/OT only domain. What I said with that no research exists to support identification of risk factors and ergonomic re-design as an effective means to decrease injury. As such, I don't believe that PT nor DC should be involved in simply taking money from unsuspecting employers based on a savy sales pitch. The only positive study, with respect to prevention and workplace ergonimic injury, is teaching back exercises and therapeutic exercise to workers for the reducting of occupational LBP injuries. I don't belive that DC's have any right in this area --- despite a few weekend courses with Craig.
Drew
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball PT PhD (edited January 21, 2003).]
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 6:04:00 AM
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coloradojulie
Posts: 413
Joined: November 10, 2002
From: colorado usa
Status: offline
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Flexion:
I agree all our tones have had a certain "bite" to them. Including yours...the "attacks" are not one sided...i think you yourself used the term 'Fascist'. SO we are all a little touchy...okay...lets get on with it.
I learn from all of you people on this website. You make me think and piss me off all at once. That is a great thing! If we never have to question ourselves and what we do...who will? We all leave discussions like this believing even more strongly in what we do! That is great!
One of the questions they asked in my PT interview long ago...well not that long...was "when have you ever changed your mind about something that you held a strong belief in?" That is a great question! I am open minded and want to have educated opinions. That is why I want you to teach us about chriopractic education and techniques. I refer my hubby to chiros for "rib-out" problems. He is a lazy guy who doesn't do exercises and he likes the quick fix. I am obviously not anti chiros. I want to know more. There are things that you guys do that I can't and vice versa. I guess I am trying to create more knowledge of what those things are.
It is okay to have debate where not everyone agrees...that is where great ideas come from...thicken your skin..when I read this stuff my blood pressure doesn't rise, I chuckle and say...touche! Keep it coming!!
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 6:16:00 AM
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function
Posts: 29
Joined: October 5, 2002
Status: offline
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Dr. Ball,
On January 19 your post stated that "ergonomics is the domain of PT/OT stolen by the chiropractor". Go look at your post. Now if you want to change your mind that is fine, but don't deny what you posted.
And there is research identifying the risk factors. Just because you are not aware of it doesn't make it so...
So do you still say that you never stated that ergonomics is the domain of PT/OT?
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 7:07:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
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Function,
You're taking that statement a bit out of context. I think I've made myself clear, but I'll try once again:
If anyone is going to be doing ergonomics, the PT and OT have more right to it than chiropractors as according to my review of RCT's, risk factor modification has no impact upon prevention of injuries --- only therapeutic exercise, which is more the domain of PT's than DC's. It is a moot point, in my opinion, as preventative ergonomic workspace modification has not been shown to reduce injury. Most non-RCT articles, testimonials and case-studies are contaminated in that they had the workers do other things (like physical therapy/preventative therapeutic exercises). If you want to talk the role of PT or DC heatlhcare entertainment so as to make the employer give the impression to employees that they're making an attempt to reduce injury, that's a different discussion. In that vein, I maintain that clinical ergonomics has been stolen by chiropractors, as they are the second-rate clinician for therapeutic exercise intervention. The rest is moot (or as my little sister would say, "Cow Talk") as workspace redesign hasn't yet been shown to be an effective means by which to reduce injury.
There are TESTIMONIALS and CASE STUDIES identifying possible risk factors on the basis of reducing pain by ergonomic reorganization of workspace POST-INJURY. You are inappropriately generalizing that this is the same thing as proof that elimination of these ASSUMED risk factors actually has the effect of pre-emptively decreasing ergonomic injury. There simply aren't any RCT's that support your assertion, and the articles you presented, though appreciated and serve to show how risk-factors are assumed/identified, they all fail to answer the question of prevention of injury through ergonomic design alone. For this discussion, they fail to make your case, and it frustrates me as a teacher that I can't communicate with you well enough for you to see your error.
Drew
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball PT PhD (edited January 21, 2003).]
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 7:16:00 AM
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function
Posts: 29
Joined: October 5, 2002
Status: offline
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Dr. Ball,
I am sorry that you think I took it out of context. I just reacted to what I you stated,that "ergonomics is the domain of PT/OT...". Then you state that you didn't say that, then say I took it out of context...like I said before...this is an exercise if futility....
I am tired of beating a dead horse...
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 7:58:00 AM
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flexion
Posts: 151
Joined: August 7, 2002
Status: offline
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Colorado:
I have never used the term you mention on any message board. You may be confusing my nickname with Function.
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 8:37:00 AM
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function
Posts: 29
Joined: October 5, 2002
Status: offline
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it was I who used the term Fascist....I will admit my post
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 10:05:00 AM
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NYDC67
Posts: 49
Joined: December 19, 2002
Status: offline
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Nice work Enlightened DC!
PT's,
A lot of Liebenson's work is based on the work of Lewit and Janda. They even contributed chapters to his book. Were they PT's? No.
[This message has been edited by NYDC67 (edited January 21, 2003).]
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 12:18:00 PM
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MaxPT
Posts: 4
Joined: December 22, 2002
Status: offline
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NYDC67
Janda and Lewit are not chiropractors either, they are MDs ....
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 12:19:00 PM
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MaxPT
Posts: 4
Joined: December 22, 2002
Status: offline
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NYDC67
Janda and Lewit are not chiropractors either, they are MDs ....
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Re: Fun with Chiropractors on Chiroweb - January 21, 2003 12:19:00 PM
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MaxPT
Posts: 4
Joined: December 22, 2002
Status: offline
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NYDC67
Janda and Lewit are not chiropractors either, they are MDs ....
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