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Re: PT's against Fraud!
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 18, 2002 12:50:00 PM
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bendnflex
Posts: 21
Joined: February 12, 2002
From: Long Island
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Mr. Ball,
Keep up the good work! I wish there were more P.T.(s) out there like you! If you do not have an answer you find it and tell others. You post your reasons with published facts to back your research. WOW! Today we have 5 therapists on board who know the facts on billing, tomorrow the WORLD!
I read the the posts with the D.C. Again, great work!
[This message has been edited by bendnflex (edited February 18, 2002).]
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 18, 2002 2:16:00 PM
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raleigh
Posts: 14
Joined: February 11, 2002
From: Washington
Status: offline
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I don't mean to burst the bubble on the subject concerning rents in Manhattan, but $30/sq ft per month is not completely out of the realm of possibility. I personally know some guys who had a RETAIL space ( about 3,000sqft) in the NoHo/SoHo area and were paying about $20,000 a month in rent, but had to move because the rent was being raised to somewhere between $30,000 to $40,000 per month. Now, obviously you shouldn't locate a PT clinic on the bottom floor in a trendy neighborhood like SoHo, but even at $50 per sq ft, that's only $2500 per month if calculated on the yearly rate. I guarantee there's nothing in Manhattan for that cheap. I guess this is off the subject a little, but I wouldn't believe the cost of rent if I didn't hear it from someone who actually owned a business in NYC.
[This message has been edited by raleigh (edited February 18, 2002).]
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 18, 2002 2:41:00 PM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
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Raleigh:
I have seen rents listed even higher than 50/sq. foot. Also........a good one bedroom, in a good area, rents for over $2,000/month. The rents here are absolutely ridiculous! When I come down to check your books I may have to look for a place to live [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]
Drew:
I agree that we have gotten lazy and we have relied upon insurance simply to pay us no matter what. As a result a lot of care is unproven and of not much value without third party payors.
But I am uncertain about the optometry and dentistry analogy. The reason is that they have the exclusive (or almost exculsive) right to practice certain proceedures - we don't and I am not sure we ever will.
A dentist is qualified to perform surgical proceedures in the mouth. There is no other professional who can perform this necessary service. An optomitrist can prescribe glasses, dispense medication and use medications and certain equipment in order to evaluate the eye. Only certain physicians would be able to do the same.
I think the best analogy to the DPT is the PharmD. This has opened some doors for pharmacy but not in the ways that they had hoped.
In terms of P.T., even if we come up systems that demonstrate clear value, there is no stopping other professionals from using the techniques. We don't hold exculusive authority over any technique, equipment or approach. When we come up with novel approaches (example......australian approach for spinal stabilization), there is no stopping chiropractors, ATCs and even, yes, personal trainers from using the techniques. I would like to see the PT of the future ordering X-rays, dispensing meds and doing studies such as NCV and EMG. But I am not sure how we get from here to there. It will certainly be a while.
A recent review of the healthcare system has revealed that the vast majority of treatments lack scientific validation. However, as physicians have a monopoly on the right to perform certain services, they are protected.
Where will we stand?????
Just curious...
mcap
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 18, 2002 5:06:00 PM
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T. Baldwin, PT
Posts: 15
Joined: February 10, 2002
Status: offline
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Mcap,
I know how PT's of the future would be able to dispense meds, order x-rays, etc:
GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL!!!! It is those types of attitudes that will get us the title of "doctor wannabe". I guess we should save that conversation for another forum topic however.
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 18, 2002 7:33:00 PM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
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T. Baldwin:
I am not sure that I made such a big leap. The vision of the future should encompass what you would like to see happen - not necessarily what would happen or what may be possible.
As for EMG/NCVs, some PTs already administer these tests. So where is the issue?
As for X-rays and medications......PAs and NPs already do it. And, I beleive that in the military, PTs may already have some priveledges along those lines....not sure but I have been told that they do. Are chiropractors more qualified to order films?
Yes...there are questions of training and qualifications....many of which I have raised in previous threads. There are many PTs that I wouldn't even trust with direct access. But.....I am not sure that a desire to expand the scope is synonymous with the creation of "Doctor Wanabes."
mcap
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 18, 2002 11:53:00 PM
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Mark Hirsch
Posts: 101
Joined: December 11, 2001
From: USA
Status: offline
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Drew, you said:
"A recent review of the healthcare system has revealed that the vast majority of treatments lack scientific validation."
Can you point me to that review? I'd be very interested to read it. Thanks Mark
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 19, 2002 2:43:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT
Posts: 271
Joined: September 30, 2001
From: Chapel Hill
Status: offline
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Can you point me to the post and context in which that statement was made?
Drew
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 19, 2002 2:57:00 AM
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Mark Hirsch
Posts: 101
Joined: December 11, 2001
From: USA
Status: offline
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Drew, ooops...sorry..I mixed posts.
MCAP....can you point me to a source for your previous statement?
"A recent review of the healthcare system has revealed that the vast majority of treatments lack scientific validation. However, as physicians have a monopoly on the right to perform certain services, they are protected. "
is the recent review published? I'd be very interested to receive a copy. Mark
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 19, 2002 7:01:00 AM
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raleigh
Posts: 14
Joined: February 11, 2002
From: Washington
Status: offline
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I did an P.T. internship at a local military hospital and there are big differences between what civilian and military PT's can do. Often times a PT is the first person an orthopedic patient sees at a troop medical clinic - fresh ACL tears, etc. PT's can order diagnostic x-rays, etc and they can prescribe NSAIDS. However, PTA's can also do some evaluation type activities. It is a very different model of practice. Often the PT evaluates and then the PTA or tech takes over most of the entire treatment. I spent alot more time doing pure evaluation and minimal time treating. I know many military PT's that do not want to leave this model because they do lose alot of freedom.
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 19, 2002 7:14:00 AM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
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Raleigh:
You have validated what I have heard about PT in the military. So.....this is the question......is it really such a huge leap to envision PTs practicing like that in public???
Regarding the review of the healthcare system, it was completed by two harvard physicians for the NAS or NIH. I am not sure. They labeled the health care system as a "tangled web." I cited it in a previous post, I had seen a summary of the report in a New York Times article. I will try and get the source for you.
mcap
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 22, 2002 5:40:00 AM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
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I have recently heard something interesting related to this thread.
Apparently Health South is suing the government over the time issues. If they were billing correctly, there is no way they could have handled the volume they had. In their case, they are contending that their billing practices are "industry standard" and that the requirements should change. The decision should have far reaching implications. We will see.
If they loose, I beleive that the profession will benefit. There will be more clinics to handle the volume and better care. This should mean more opportunties for PTs. However, there are other possibilities. It is possible that they will maximize their efforts to use ATCs or other personell at cheaper rates in order to maintain the volume.
mcap
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 22, 2002 6:44:00 AM
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bendnflex
Posts: 21
Joined: February 12, 2002
From: Long Island
Status: offline
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Where did your read or hear about the Healthsouth Lawsuit?
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 22, 2002 8:43:00 AM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
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Heard from a friend who is a PT. NOT CONFIRMED.
mcap
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Re: PT's against Fraud! - February 22, 2002 12:47:00 PM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
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This is from my good friend SJ Bird.......
[URL=http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020118/atf014_1.html]http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020118/atf014_1.html[/URL]
Copy it into your browser I could post it as a link.
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