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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 2:18:00 PM
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mcap
Posts: 652
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Henry:
I echo your sentiments. I question whether children truly benefit from manipulation. Some people are doing it to infants.
With regards to manipulation....it has been most carefully studied for LBP. That is where the wealth of research is. And...by an large....most reviews have found it to be safe and effective but only in the short term. There is not substantial evidence regarding long-term efficacy or regarding efficacy of use in chronic patients. There are some studies though. A Dutch review found that manual therapy had some benefit in chronic patients and there are studies here and there.
But......for the most part...it doesn't appear that it has proven to benefit anyone past the short term (would not be the only lbp treatment that has fallen short).
I would have a hard time beleiving that manipulation actually changed the position and relationship of the joints. Biomehanically, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I would imagine it was more a neuromuscular and/or neurophysiological effect. And.....in that way......many of our PT and chiro treatments are probably more alike than we think......
mcap
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 4:19:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Hey Henry,
Thanks for the prompt reply and for challenging my arguments. I will have to concede that as I am not a subscriber to the skeptical inquirer I cannot provide direct quotes to back up my claim. My observation of its biases comes only from a select number of articles I have been shown which contained numerous errors and emotional statements about chiropractic in general. However, as I cannot substantiate my point I will drop this argument.
I think you may have missed my point about publishing that many PT's claim to cure cancer. As a matter of fact, I would never run out of material to print as my imagination is pretty extensive and I could always come up with some new sensational "expose" to warn the public about. The point here is that any claim can be made, and if it is argued in an intelligible way many people will be duped into believing it, especially if they have a bias against that practice to begin with (as I'd guess you and many others have against chiropractic). The reasons I'd suspect that chiropractic is innundated with so many more attacks than physiotherapy are several; First, physiotherapy is shielded by the allopathic umbrella, which until recently has been generally unquestioned by the public. Second, as DC's have had to fight to gain the status and recognition that we deserve, we represent a threat to the traditional medicine and are thus highly critisized by them. Third, out past comes back to haunt us repeatedly. I can't count the number of articles I've read that bring up old theories and that we still believe in the "pinched nerve" theory. Don't believe them!!! Honestly, our profession has evolved from it's early days (as have medicine and physiotherapy), but some of our prior beliefs are still used as ammunition against us.
I'm sorry that I have to disagree about your statement of the black sheep. The unfortunate truth is that MD's as a whole vastly over-medicate patients (yes, there is plenty of evidence to support this). For instance, why are so many bacteria becoming anitbiotic resistant? Precicely BECAUSE antibiotics are prescribed on a prophylactic, rather than evidence based basis. Having worked in a surgical department myself, I can confirm for you that many surgeries are done out of convenience or lack of knowledge of alternatives for the surgeon rather than in the best interests of the patient. I'm not saying surgeons are bad people; as a matter of fact several of them are friends but this is precicely how I have learned of their fallability and can make these statements. I'm sure you've had patients who have undergone surgery for conditions that could have been handled just as well, if not better with physio. If you want to talk about black sheep in medicine, we can discuss why medical error is the third leading cause of death in the USA (I can give you the reference for that if you need it).
As usual, I've gone on way to long. I'm impressed if you have made it this far in reading my comments [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/wink.gif[/IMG]. Very briefly, I'll just say that if you want to argue that chiropractic should not be used on children you must (in my mind) also argue that it should not be used with adults. No, I don't have scientific evidence to prove that it is as effective in both groups, but until evidence otherwise comes out I'd much rather take the chance of improving someone's life than standing by idly and watch them suffer. There is no reason to think it would be unsafe for them; adjustments are low amplitude and very precise. Kids experience greater body impacts in the school yard than under the hands of a skilled clinician.
Anyhow Henry, I hope this clears up some of my thinking. I'd just like to again say that I am not anti-medicine; I'm merely pro-chiropractic and get annoyed when we are criticized unjustly. Please, don't believe everything you read (and that goes for what I write too!). Take some extra time and check things out for yourself at the source. That way you're much less likely to be misled by others with an agenda.
Thanks for the stimulating debate!
Chiroguy
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 4:45:00 PM
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Barrett
Posts: 967
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From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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Chiroguy,
It occurs to me that you represent your colleagues perfectly. I really couldn't ask for a more appropriate post from the chiropractic point of view.
Thanks.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 5:00:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Barrett,
Thanks for the support. It sometimes gets a bit lonely in here for the beleagered chiro [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]. Hey, whaddya know - I kept my response to under 1000 words!
Chiroguy
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 5:39:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT
Posts: 271
Joined: September 30, 2001
From: Chapel Hill
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Forum,
And what have we to say about chiropractors who claim to be able to cure autism, cerebral palsy, and learning disabilities by manipulating the spine?
As a pediatric physical therapist, I find most of the claims of pediatric chiropractors to be irresponsible at best, and dangerous at worst --- I'm getting so sick of clinical artists in EVERY healthcare profession. Like Judge Judy who renders verdicts without letting the facts or the law stand in her way, clinical artists hold true to a belief and don't let facts or evidence stand in their way either --- usually to the detriment of thier patients.
Makes it harder for evidence-based clinical scientists like myself to clean up the mess --- and damages the reputations of our respective professions.
Consider the following:
Olafsdottir E. Randomised controlled trial of infantile colic treated with chiropractic spinal manipulation. Arch Dis Child 2001 Feb;84(2):138-41
This is a study of 100 infants with colic, recruited to a randomised, blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial to test the efficacy of chiropractic manipulation for colic. 86 kids completed the study. There was no significant effect of chiropractic spinal manipulation. Thirty two of 46 infants in the treatment group (69.9%), and 24 of 40 in the control group (60.0%), showed some degree of improvement. The authors therefore concluded that chiropractic spinal manipulation is no more effective than placebo in the treatment of infantile colic. This study emphasizes the need for placebo controlled and blinded studies when investigating alternative methods to treat unpredictable conditions such as infantile colic.
Still think Chiropractic care is critical for infants with colic?
How about the effectiveness of chiropractic care for childhood asthma?
Balon J, et al. A comparison of active and simulated chiropractic manipulation as adjunctive treatment for childhood asthma. N Engl J Med 1998 Oct 8;339(15):1013-20
This study was a randomized, controlled trial of chiropractic spinal manipulation for children with mild or moderate asthma. After a three-week base-line evaluation period, 91 children who had continuing symptoms of asthma despite usual medical therapy were randomly assigned to receive either active or simulated chiropractic manipulation for four months. None had previously received chiropractic care. Each subject was treated by 1 of 11 participating chiropractors, selected by the family according to location. The primary outcome measure was the change from base line in the peak expiratory flow, measured in the morning, before the use of a bronchodilator, at two and four months. Except for the treating chiropractor and one investigator (who was not involved in assessing outcomes), all participants remained fully blinded to treatment assignment throughout the study. RESULTS: Eighty children (38 in the active-treatment group and 42 in the simulated-treatment group) had outcome data that could be evaluated. There were small increases (7 to 12 liters per minute) in peak expiratory flow in the morning and the evening in both treatment groups, with no significant differences between the groups in the degree of change from base line (morning peak expiratory flow, P=0.49 at two months and P=0.82 at four months). Symptoms of asthma and use of 3-agonists decreased and the quality of life increased in both groups, with no significant differences between the groups. There were no significant changes in spirometric measurements or airway responsiveness. CONCLUSIONS: In children with mild or moderate asthma, the addition of chiropractic spinal manipulation to usual medical care provided no benefit.
Richards DG, Mein EA, Nelson CD. Chiropractic manipulation for childhood asthma. N Engl J Med 1999 Feb 4;340(5):391-2
While some chiropractors preach that children with asthma are overmedicated, real reasearch suggests that chriopractic manipulation has NO EFFECT upon asthama symptoms. Worse yet, undermedication can be fatal . . . and these Chiropractic Pracitioners have the GAUL to call themselves Chiropractic Physicians?!?!?!? Given what typically results in irresponsible and potentially dangerous philosophy and care, I can't belive that pediatric chiropractors are serious about being called Physicians, or even primary care pracitioners --- much less primary care physicians.
NOT ONE ARTICLE could be found in the medline database even examining the effects of chiropractic care upon austim or cerebral palsy. If Chiropractors ever want to have any respectability in the healthcare enviroment, they've GOT to do a better job of policing themselves. Those claiming to be able to "cure" these ailments with chiropractic care should be "drawn and quartered" by an impartial jury of their peers.
There is a lesson for physical therapists here too . . . so let's as PT's not get to cocky either. There are nutcases in pediatric physical therapy too, it's just that we have a fewer percentage of them than do pediatric chiropractors.
How is it that we as PT's continue to allow craniosacral wack-jobs to claim to be able to treat autism in kids (esp in light of the fact that the Rogers study shows that the evaluation techniques are unreliable), or allow other wack-jobs to claim to be able to treat autism with sensory integration DESPITE Patricia Rodie's embyologic studies that suggest that "integration" is really a post-traumatic response to noxious stimulation?
Non-evidence based clinical artists are needed, in that SOMETIMES, it takes a while for art to catch up to science . . . but for the most part, many of these wackos should have their professional licenses re-examined --- PT's and DC's alike.
Drew
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 6:03:00 PM
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henryryry
Posts: 100
Joined: September 6, 2000
From: Brisbane, Australia.
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chiroguy,
thank you once again for clearing up some of the points. I agree with Barrett that your comments represent your profession very well, and it is good to be able to discuss openly some of these "grey" zones. I also agree with mcap that many of the things we do overlap, and have not been shown to work past the short term.
With regards to MD's been the third major cause of death... i think I know which study you are referring to. However, are there any studies to show how many lives MD's save?? Are there any stats on how many percent of MD's actually cause these deaths? ( [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/wink.gif[/IMG] don't trust what you read without critically thinking about it.) In a sense, I can not imagine myself been a MD because there is simply too much knowledge to learn and too much ground to cover. My cousin is a physician working in the field of women's health and paediatrics, and for all the things she is expected to know, I am amazed she hasn't gone insane [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Henry***
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 6:42:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Hey Drew,
As someone who works with children, I can imagine your frustration and contempt for any person who practices unethical and harmful medicine on them. I must remind you, however, that not all or even many chiropractors subscribe to all the theories you talk of. The jury is still out on colic (one DB study isn't conclusive), but I agree that when proven treatments are abandoned for theoretical ones the child is usually the loser. I'd also like to remind you that no one is more critical in the research community of chiropractic than chiropractors themselves. As a matter of fact, a clinician at my school has just recently finished a very large study which showed no effect of manipulation on asthma, and he did not hesitate to publish. In the same vein, a quick review of most chiropractic journals is sometimes discouraging for a student; they seem to show studies of our limitations almost as often as where our strengths are. This is just as important of course, and most chiropractors are not afraid to admit when they are wrong of a condition is out of their scope of practice.
I'm curious about how many children you work with who have seen chiropractors who take them off ventilators - perhaps your area has a lot of chiropractors with big egos. Please don't generalize these practitioners to all chiropractic!!! Most of us are ethical, evidence based, and wish to work with other medical professionals instead of against them.
Henry, once again my purpose here is not to villify medicine or to insinuate that medical doctors are not an important part of the health care team. I'm sure many more lives are saved than lost because of the intervention of doctors, not to mention improvements in the quality of life of patients. I was merely trying to illustrate that medicine is far from being infallible or completely safe. You are correct that there is a lot of info to know as a medical doctor; just as there is for a chiropractor. I don't want to start a whole new storm of debate, but I have 3 friends in medical school currently and all are happy to admit that my course load is much heavier than theirs. As a primary care provider, we must not only be equally informed how to recognize when intervention is needed for many conditions, but additionally how to treat musculoskeletal conditions. It is true that we do not recieve the intense pharmacology MD's do, but our radiology, orthopedics, neurology, and physiology education is more complete.
Thanks again for the intelligent and constructive debates guys!!
Chiroguy
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 2:23:00 AM
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Barrett
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From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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Chiroguy,
I wasn't being "supportive" of what you said, I was trying to be ironic. I think your tortured reasoning, ignorance of the educational requirements of other professions and rationalization of what I consider dangerous chiropractic practices is just typical of what I've heard from your community for many years. I didn't mean this as a compliment, it was just an observation.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 5:08:00 AM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Hi again Barrett,
Hmmmm, sorry about taking your comments at face value. I will be the first to admit that I am ignorant of many of the educational details other professionals recieve. It is precisely for this reason that I enjoy engaging in discussions and debates with people from other fields (that's why I'm here!). I should hope that you too can admit to your ignorance (do you know all about chiropractic, naturopathic, medical or massage education?) and as such be open to finding out what others know and have to offer. Due to your unfortunate vagueness, however, I am uncertain of what "ignorance of educational requirements" in particular you are referring to. Please advise.
Although I try to be as logical and clear as possible, I apologize if I have not articulated my views adequately. What "tortured reasoning" are you referring to specifically? In general I try to stick to evidence based comments, and when I make personal commentary I attempt to be as objective as possible. If I have not been successful in my attempts, challenging me specifically is much more productive than resorting to petty insults or unfounded criticisms.
Along these lines, I am also interested in hearing what dangerous chiropractic practices you are referring to. Merely making sensational claims of malfeasance serves no purpose in this forum, as it does not address specific problems you may percieve or allow them to be commented upon.
If you are going to critique my posts in the future, as I hope you and many others will, please address my comments or opinions directly as I have attempted to do here. As you can see, it takes twice the number of posts to address issues if the responder must question you about each vague point you have made. Also, when making comments please be able to support them with evidence. Remember, emotion-laden rhetoric is not productive.
To close, I'll put your fears to rest. Although I had not interpreted your post properly at first, I still appreciate your comments. I enjoy being challenged on what I say, for if you question my comments chances are others do too. I simply ask that we all try to keep this forum as non-judgemental and mature as possible. We are all professionals here and should try to act as such.
Observe away!
Chiroguy
P.S. Although I said I appreciated your support, it would be foolish of me to claim that I represent my colleagues perfectly. I can only represent myself and attempt to raise arguments which I feel are important. It's too bad there isn't another chiropracically inclined person around to give their comments too. Please do not hold my profession in contempt for any objectionable views I may hold.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 5:19:00 AM
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bendnflex
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From: Long Island
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It was my understanding in the B.C. Prov. in Canada each Canadian could receive 12 visits from a Chiropracter a year. It is my further understanding because of abuse by the Chiro's the program was cut in Jan. 2002. Chiroguy are you in Canada? Why was the program cut? Physiotherapists are still going strong in B.C.!
[This message has been edited by bendnflex (edited February 20, 2002).]
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 12:02:00 PM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Point of clarification Bendnflex, re: the cuts to service in B.C.:
All "Supplementary Health Care Providers" were delisted Jan 1, '02. That includes PTs, (12 visits/ year/ BC resident), massage therapists (12 visits/yr./ res.), chiros (same), podiatrists, unless it's a surgical procedure being billed, optometrists (1 visit every three years) and naturopaths.
Now all residents of the province must pay cash for treatment, and those who qualify for premium assistance (income less than $24000 Can./year) will be reimbursed $23 per visit for a grand total of 10 visits/ year total, in any combination of practitioner visits, for PT, chiro or massage.
As a PT in BC, I have to say that in my humble opinion it's not good form to accuse chiros of knocking over the government subsidy to supplementary health care. It was bound to happen sooner or later. Most PTs "opted out" a few years back rather than continue to endure proration at the government's whim... so the amount reimbursed to the PT amounted in the end to a slight subsidy per patient per visit.
I think other factors are coming to bear on the provincial system that have nothing to do with chiros (unless all of them voted for this particular bunch...)
As for practitioners taking advantage of any particular payment scheme, I think there were a lot of PT clinics that operated as hard and fast as they could to get the goodies, for years, seeing up to 8 patients per hour per therapist. A couple seem to have closed. I don't have much info on chiros, but I think 50 -80 patients a day wasn't uncommon. I don't know how they're doing at the moment here. PT clinics are averaging about a %30 drop in business.
Diane
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 2:18:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Bendnflex,
I am a Canadian going to school in Toronto (which is in Ontario), and am not totally aware of the politics that have been going on recently in British Columbia. Diane has given an excellent and balanced response though, so I hope that answers some of your questions. Once again, we have a case of misinformation which is taken without critical analysis of the source leading to unfounded biases. Before making such strong accusations, please do some research for yourself in the future.
Thanks for keeping me busy,
Chiroguy
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 3:48:00 PM
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bendnflex
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From: Long Island
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Just posting what I heard. It was only based on a D.C. friend stating the D.C.'s in B.C. Canada took a big blow. Thought the info. should be out there. I also think students should not speak from expierence, need I say more?
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 3:56:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Bendnflex,
Um, yup, please do say more. I'm not sure what you mean by saying that students should not speak from experience. If you are implying that as I am not a licensed chiropractor yet I should not be commenting on things I have no experience with, I will have to ask you to review my posts. I have not made reference to personal experience with patients but rather stick to facts which anyone can garner. Please let me know if I've interpreted your suggestion correctly.
Chiroguy
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 4:21:00 PM
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David Adamczyk
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From: Cleveland
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RehabEdge Members,
MCAP needs your help in the Orthopedics Forum.
[URL=http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/000192.html]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/000192.html[/URL]
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 6:15:00 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1205
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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From the information sheets and flyers I have collected from Chiro-offices, I would have thought to find RCTs showing the clear benefits of manipulation of infants for colic. Any comments on the following?
Randomised controlled trial of infantile colic treated with chiropractic spinal manipulation.
Olafsdottir E, Forshei S, Fluge G, Markestad T.
Department of Paediatrics, University of Bergen, 5021 Bergen, Norway. eola@haukeland.no
AIMS: To investigate the efficacy of chiropractic spinal manipulation in the management of infantile colic. METHODS: One hundred infants with typical colicky pain were recruited to a randomised, blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial. RESULTS: Nine infants were excluded because inclusion criteria were not met, and five dropped out, leaving 86 who completed the study. There was no significant effect of chiropractic spinal manipulation. Thirty two of 46 infants in the treatment group (69.9%), and 24 of 40 in the control group (60.0%), showed some degree of improvement. CONCLUSION: Chiropractic spinal manipulation is no more effective than placebo in the treatment of infantile colic. This study emphasises the need for placebo controlled and blinded studies when investigating alternative methods to treat unpredictable conditions such as infantile colic.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
With regards to the obvious risks involved with manipulation of cervical joints (I do that myself - not on children..), I would be concerned about the lack of benefit.
Sebastian PT
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 6:47:00 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1205
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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And in those same flyers: "pediatric asthma will be prevented or treated with manipulation". How about this study - by the Chiropractic College itself? Great stuff that the Canadian College studies and publishes this. Kudos, and it strengthens my support for the chiros I work with on occasion - they heed this type of research -
Balon J, Aker PD, Crowther ER, Danielson C, Cox PG, O'Shaughnessy D, Walker C, Goldsmith CH, Duku E, Sears MR.
Division of Graduate Studies and Research, Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College, Toronto, ON, Canada.
BACKGROUND: Chiropractic spinal manipulation has been reported to be of benefit in nonmusculoskeletal conditions, including asthma. METHODS: We conducted a randomized, controlled trial of chiropractic spinal manipulation for children with mild or moderate asthma. After a three-week base-line evaluation period, 91 children who had continuing symptoms of asthma despite usual medical therapy were randomly assigned to receive either active or simulated chiropractic manipulation for four months. None had previously received chiropractic care. Each subject was treated by 1 of 11 participating chiropractors, selected by the family according to location. The primary outcome measure was the change from base line in the peak expiratory flow, measured in the morning, before the use of a bronchodilator, at two and four months. Except for the treating chiropractor and one investigator (who was not involved in assessing outcomes), all participants remained fully blinded to treatment assignment throughout the study. RESULTS: Eighty children (38 in the active-treatment group and 42 in the simulated-treatment group) had outcome data that could be evaluated. There were small increases (7 to 12 liters per minute) in peak expiratory flow in the morning and the evening in both treatment groups, with no significant differences between the groups in the degree of change from base line (morning peak expiratory flow, P=0.49 at two months and P=0.82 at four months). Symptoms of asthma and use of 3-agonists decreased and the quality of life increased in both groups, with no significant differences between the groups. There were no significant changes in spirometric measurements or airway responsiveness. CONCLUSIONS: In children with mild or moderate asthma, the addition of chiropractic spinal manipulation to usual medical care provided no benefit.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
- Too many chiros and PTs ignore RCTs and meta-analysis in order to continue practising the most $-wise way...
The start of this discussion came with the issue of chiros as primary care providers. I think that slinging mud is impractical, because, at times that I participated in that "game", a lot of the mud tended to stick to me....messes up my glasses.
However, I have to agree with the three chiros I have worked with closely at sporting events: "subluxation" is as of yet still not confirmed in any scientific manner, doesn't fit any physiological concept (so it is not at the core of their explanation of what they do), any infant manipulation has no true scientific theoretical basis - nor any supporting research..... And there is a strong debate about the actual risks of manipulations. With all of the above, there is much to be said for stronger and stricter standards of practice in chiropractic.
...and it is a sign of weak logic and poor debating skills (PTs and chiros) to point at the faults and shortcomings of allopathic medicine to justify our own shortcomings.
I feel my soapbox starting to wobble...
Sebastian
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 20, 2002 7:35:00 PM
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bendnflex
Posts: 21
Joined: February 12, 2002
From: Long Island
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Dear Chiroguy and other students,
The person you are now is not the same person you will be in 5 years out in the real world. School will shelter and give you the knowledge to overcome. For now your rent, lifestyle and free will do not depend on your practice. KEYWORD: Practice! In school we are all afforded the ability to speak as if we are informed. It is through life expierence in one's field that makes us dynamic! You are a student and in a sense we all are. For now you have what others will teach. You will learn, those who can't, teach. You will look back and the instructors you have now will become that "person" who teaches at the private college but, was not willing to risk it all. I often go to C.E.U. clases and hear the "I make 50,000 cash" a month in my business and you can too! Yeah, then why are you hear to show off your ego to people who are paying to listen because your own "buddys" mock you!......Sorry bit, of a rant! My point your a student, you can afford to talk as if you have been there. Your points are taught by other people's points that you paid to listen to. The real world is very, very different [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/eek.gif[/IMG] You will see! After you oh, we don't run a clinic billing that way or you want to quit ,oohhhh, you signed a 10 mile non-compete clause or the D.C. who like alot but, keeps 50% of your money and gives more respect to the office chick who drinks all the coffee but, never chips in. There is a reason people teach and not lead! I am not talking about all teachers and I love life and would not give up 1 bad day for 10 good ones that is what makes you stronger! You are a student! You have not hade the good, the bad or ugly of your chosen prof. So, for now I view you as 4 books short of your degree. It does not make you a bad person, It just does not make you a Doctor.
P.S. I go to my D.C. once or twice a month as needed The above reasons about being burned in a D.C. clinic are real stories shared over beers. BEWARE!
[This message has been edited by bendnflex (edited February 21, 2002).]
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 21, 2002 7:18:00 AM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
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David:
Thanks for the attention. Serves me right for starting this thread [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]
mcap
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 24, 2002 7:32:00 PM
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chipomalley
Posts: 156
Joined: January 7, 2002
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline
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Chiroguy, in your post of Feb 19 you mention that you believe the third leading cause of death in US is medical error. I have seen this bit of information in propaganda put out by the Pennsylvania Trial Lawyers Assn here in Pennsylvania, USA, published letters to the editor without references cited as our state legislature continues to debate solutions to malpractice insurance matters.
My question to you now is can you please give us this reference as you have offered so that we all may review it and interpret?
Chip
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George E. O'Malley, Jr., PT, OCS
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