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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - December 6, 2001 8:19:00 AM
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mcap
Posts: 652
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Hpowell....
Welcome to the forum!! Could you please point us to a few of these studies so that we can evaluate them.
I see a fundamental difference here. I beleive that both groups can see uncomplicated musculoskeletal issues directly. PTs can in most states already. In the armed forces we can order radiographs and prescribe limited medication (I think). However, I think that PTs wish to be the portal of entry for MS complaints only. It seems like the DCs want to be the portal of entry for all conditions. And on that, we disagree about the qualifications required.
REspectfully,
mcap
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - December 6, 2001 8:21:00 AM
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mcap
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Wait......
I must add that I cannont speak for our colleagues in Neuro and Peds. I am not sure of what they will expect from Direct Access. What exactly will they expect????
mcap
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - December 6, 2001 10:44:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT
Posts: 271
Joined: September 30, 2001
From: Chapel Hill
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Dr. Powell,
Welcome to the forum. I'm interested in how a Chiropractor ended up a County Coroner, but that's beyond the scope of this thread. Would you mind opening another topic explaining how you achieved this unique status in spite of not being a medical doctor (MD)?
I'd like some additional clarification on your statements:
"As a practicing chiropractic physician and pt I can truly say that I have been considered a primary care provider in my state." By pt I'm sure that you mean patient, and not physical therapist, as the state of Missori does not have you listed as a licensed physical therapist in their database.
Second, for the pupose of clarity, I suggest that you review the difference between what we on this thread have defined as difference between PCpractitioner and PCphysician. Being titled a "doctor" or "chiropractic physician" by your colleagues does not de facto afford you rights as a PCphysician. Not any more than an optomotrist or podiatrist.
"Being in a medically underserved area I see patients daily for numerous problems that have not been seen by previous providers. We are the portal of entry into the health care system for many of these people. It is my responsibility as a licensed health care provider to be able to determine what type of care is in the best interest of the patients. I have the ability to determine when a persons situation may not be within my scope of practice and the knowledge and experience to know when a referal is required." That's a great argument, and I don't disagree with your points, but that's not the definition of a PCphysician, it's the definition of a PCpractitioner and within the scope of practice of nurse pracitioners, optomotrists, podiatrists, physician assistants, and physical therapists working in any of the 30 direct access states. What makes Chirpractors special as to be anything more?
As for your final comments, the "effectivness of chiropractic services within the military setting" has been limited to cost containment, NOT quality of care. The same cost effective results would have been observed in these studies if all patients died as a result of poor quality of care. I'd be careful about pushing those studies as demonstrations of "effectiveness of chiropractic services."
Again, DC's have, at best, a reasonable argument for being termed PCpracitioners because some are, but not all, are sufficiently trained to function as a point of entry into the healthcare system.
An example for clarification: I am today out sick with a primary heatlhcare problem --- I've got the flu. The PCphysician has all tools aviablable to him/her to differentially diagnose this problem and treat accordingly. A chiropractor would be completely incompotent in differentially diagnosing the flu from tuberculosis, anthrax, or any other respiratory disorder. They're simply not sufficiently trained in primary care. Even if they could, proper spinal alignment isn't the problem --- a microbe is, and DC's can perscribe any antiboiotics.
Andrew M. Ball, MBA, PhD(ABD), PT
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 25, 2002 12:59:00 PM
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chirostud2003
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I am a chiropractic student at National Health Sciences University. I ran across this post while looking for something else, but needed to reply. It seems that there are many areas where people develop misunderstandings about training etc. At NUHS all students have a bachelors degree plus 10 semesters of chiropractic physician training including 4 semesters of basic science. I suggest that you check out our web site at [URL=http://www.nuhs.edu]www.nuhs.edu[/URL] . We are licensed to Diagnose and are referred as Physicians. A significant amount of our training is dedicated towards diagnosis including everything to musculoskeletal to ear infections. We are not allowed to perform incisive surgery or treat with prescription medicine (IL). NUHS teaches us to base our decisions on medical fact and also that chiropractic can’t cure everything. For example, we are taught that we must refer-out persons with type I diabetes for allopathic treatment. Yes, we may offer some nutritional support or other therapies to co-manage, but we know that this is something we can’t cure. I see Chiropractic Physicians as a natural alternative/compliment to Allopathic Physicians. Yes there are some “crazy” ideas out there, but remember 10 years ago many therapies used by both our disciplines were considered “crazy”. I hope that chiropractic continues on the edge of investigating alternative therapies, however, we must always do this according to widely accepted safe procedures.
Having not attended PT school, I am not sure what your training/licensure is. Are you licensed to diagnose? I perhaps wrongly, understood that you were not licensed. Where do you see yourselves in comparison to allopathic physicians? I as this in an effort to better understand PTs not make judgments. I will be the first to admit that I do not know much about PTs.
Please understand that while there are fringe elements of the chiropractic profession (like all professions). We, like you, are truly trying to best improve the health of our patients.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 25, 2002 2:48:00 PM
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DPDC
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From: Corvallis, OR, USA
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Rumor has it that President Bush signed the VA bill into law today (Friday 1/25/02.) Can't tell you if all of the original provisions remained intact.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 25, 2002 6:07:00 PM
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mcap
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DPDC:
I think that there was no provision to allow chiropractors PCP status. However, there was some kind of provision to increase the availability in underserved areas.
I could be wrong....I remember just bits and pieces.......
Take care,
Marc
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 25, 2002 7:14:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Hi there,
I too just came across this site by coincidence while looking for other chiro info, and felt a need to support what Chirostud2003 had to say. I’m a chiropractic student at CMCC (Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College) in Toronto, Ontario. Our school has an extremely intense program (incidentally more intense than that of several friends in medical school here in Ontario) and we are taught intensive diagnostic and treatment skills. It goes without saying that one of the reasons we are taught these skills is PRECISELY so that we know when to refer to other professionals who are trained to treat problems we can’t. I have 3 years of experience performing breast cancer research at an institute in Toronto, and can tell you that I did plenty of research into chiropractic before I chose it as a profession. Although some claim chiropractic can treat anything under the stars (which is obviously inaccurate) there is plenty of evidence that it is a useful and effective therapy for several medical conditions (MUCH more effective than allopathic remedies for many things). And just to clear up some confusion I read in this forum, I did not choose Chiropractic College because I couldn’t get into med school; I chose it because it works and there is lots of opportunity to help people. I would also like to state that at my college at the very least (I cannot account for any school other than my own) the student body as a whole is very well rounded, hard working, and intelligent.
There are people in our profession, as in any, who do not practice evidence based medicine and taint the integrity and reputation of their respective colleagues. Unfortunately, the chiropractic profession has seemed to attract a small minority of people with dogmatic and unscientific views who have extremely loud voices and strong convictions. Please do not judge the attitudes and practices of all chiropractors based on the self-serving and unempirical mantra of these few.
As was mentioned in this forum earlier, we in the chiropractic profession are not substitutes for family practitioners. We cannon prescribe essential drugs, diagnose psychological or many visceral diseases, or perform surgery. If any patient walked into my office warranting the need of MD care, I feel I would be just as able to recognize a referral was necessary as any other doctor who saw a patient out of their scope of practice. What we ARE qualified to do is diagnose and treat musculoskeletal dysfunctions better than any other health care professional (don’t worry, I expect debate on that point). To disqualify the possibility that chiropractic care can have farther reaching effects than purely on the muscular system would be ignorant and short sighted of any medical professional, but is not the basis for our current scope of practice.
I hope this clears up a few issues I’ve seen raised. I’d also like to point out that I know little about PT’s, and would enjoy any info you’d like to provide to decrease my ignorance of your important and vital profession. As an evidence based chiropractor, I’d like to know when I should refer my patients to a physiotherapist as well as other health care practitioners.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 25, 2002 7:19:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT
Posts: 271
Joined: September 30, 2001
From: Chapel Hill
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Chirostud,
Welcome to the Forum. I would have liked better to have just e-mailed you directly, but there was no e-mail address provided with your posting.
The misunderstanding that you bring up is an understatement at best. Perhaps on both sides. I consider National one of the better of the Chiropractic schools, so I'm VERY surprised to hear how little information you've been given, and how incorrect your assumptions about who and what physical therapist are. Physical therapists are all in fact licensed. In every state. In virtually all states physical therapists do in fact diagnose within their scope of practice, just as Chiropractors are licensed to do.
Doctors of Physical Therapy also have a BS or BA degree followed by 3 1/2 years of additional training. Physical therapists are licensed in all 50 states and in all but 16 states, physical therapist are direct access, portal of entry, primary care practitioners. We are also licensed to Diagnose and those of us with DPT's are referred to as Doctors. Just as other clinical doctors such as Chiropractors, Optometrists, Dentists, etc. are NOT PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIANS in the true sense of the words, neither are physical therapists. In my opinion, physician is a term with which clinical doctors latch quickly on to for thinly veiled attempts at public respect, but that the public at large quickly and generally sees through. Perhpas for this reason, physical therapists don't refer to themselves as physicians, though PT's with clinical doctorates (DPT's) have as much right to do so as other clinical doctorates.
As in Chiropractic programs, in all physical therapy programs, a significant amount of training is dedicated towards diagnosis including everything to musculoskeletal to ear infections, though the DPT programs provide far more extensive training (in my opinion) in this regard.
I have attached, for your review, the Vision Sentence and Vision Statement of the American Physical Therapy Association:
Vision Sentence
By 2020, physical therapy will be provided by physical therapists who are doctors of physical therapy, recognized by consumers and other health care professionals as practitioners of choice to whom consumers have direct access for the diagnosis of, interventions for, and prevention of impairments, functional limitations, and disabilities related to movement, function, and health.
Vision Statement
Physical therapy, by 2020, will be provided by physical therapists who are doctors of physical therapy and who may be board-certified specialists. Consumers will have direct access to physical therapists in all environments for patient/client management, prevention, and wellness services. Physical therapists will be practitioners of choice in clients' health networks and will hold all privileges of autonomous practice. Physical therapists may be assisted by physical therapist assistants who are educated and licensed to provide physical therapist-directed and -supervised components of interventions.
Guided by integrity, life-long learning, and a commitment to comprehensive and accessible health programs for all people, physical therapists and physical therapist assistants will render evidence-based service throughout the continuum of care and improve quality of life for society. They will provide culturally sensitive care distinguished by trust, respect, and an appreciation for individual differences.
While fully availing themselves of new technologies, as well as basic and clinical research, physical therapists will continue to provide direct care. They will maintain active responsibility for the growth of the physical therapy profession and the health of the people it serves.
As someone with an MBA in Healthcare Management and a PhD on the way, I see the future of Chiropractic Practitioners as exactly the same as Orthopedic and Sports Medicine Doctors of Physical Therapy. That is to say portal of entry Primary Care Practitioners and/or as a assitive diagnosticians to Orthopedic Surgeons in much the same way that the OD/MD-Opthamology relationship has developed. As a pediatric physical therapist, I see roles as Primary Care Practitioners working with Developmental Neurologists and Physiatrists to work out in similar course, though with all their training, I've found DC's, even the graduates of NYCC and National, grossly under prepared in the area of pediatric motor development and more importantly compensatory pathokinesiology --- so unless something has changed I expect DPT's to have the edge in that realm.
All of that, however, is besides the point. The bottom line is that we all, Doctors of Physical Therapy, Doctors of Chiropractic, and Doctors of Medicine MUST learn a lesson from what some OD's and Ophthalmologists have been able to do. They figured out decades ago that many MD's really didn't want to spend time with the patient, listening, getting subjective info, etc. --- they wanted to do surgery. When the OD's realized they could support pre-op and post-op care from within the same office, and focus attention on subjective, patient care and outcomes improve dramatically and well, many practices made out very well financially.
We too have got to drop the turf wars regarding scope of practice and what each of us are licensed to do. That's not the point. The point is that we do in fact have overlap in training and skills, but what most DC's, DPT's, and MD's WANT to do with thier time is generally vastly different. There is NO REASON why we can't work together in the best interests of the patient, AND in the development of our respective professions.
Drew
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT (edited January 26, 2002).]
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 25, 2002 8:07:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Editors Note : This comment is in response to a submission made by Bobcat that was removed for inappropriate language.
Hi Bobcat,
Thanks for the constructive critisisms. I now realize the err in my thinking. I'm curious as to whether you are a PT, MD, or interested member of society. I'd like to answer your question as well as I can by saying that Chiropractors, as well as optometrists, PhD's, MD's and psychologists are all REAL doctors. Your argument is one more of simantics than of critical thinking. I have already seen previous posts explaining what the definition of "doctor" is, but it is apparent that you have either missed or misunderstood these postings, which I suggest you review so that future postings will be more informed and constructive.
As for going to a school that requires a B.Sc. degree, I have no idea what you are referring to. Please clarify this comment. As you surly know being someone who is informed about what you comment on, there is no such thing as a "Pre-Med" program in Canada; but I'm sure this was merely an innocent error on your part. As per taking courses similar in name but not in content in Chiro college, you may be interested to learn that several of our lecturers are not only MD's, but are also teachers at the U of T Medical School (a world-renowned school). Of course, this does not make their courses any more thorough or valuable than those taught by PhD's or DC's, but I have a feeling you would have a difficult time understanding this. You may also be interested to know that, at least in Canada, it is not easy to get into chiropractic college. Our school, on average, has between 800-1000 applications for 160 spots and several of my classmates rejected med school offers to go where they really wanted to.
Finally, you said "When people are really sick and need results, they go to a real doctor." Thank you for acknowledging this. It is my hope that as society becomes more educated people will quit wasting tax dollars by wasting time going to clinicians not trained to deal with their particular problems. Imagine how much money could be saved if patients with infections went to their GP for antibiotics, patients with psychological disorders went to psychiatrists or psychologists, and patients with musculoskeletal pain went to chiropractors. Millions of dollars could be saved by going directly to specialists in their respective fields who have adequate training to deal with the problem.
Bobcat, I hope you are able to make more constructive comments in the future rather than trying to inflame contributors to this site with different views than your own. I can see why you might get enjoyment from trying to make someone become outraged and enter in spurious debate, but the only person who ends up looking like the fool is yourself. I look forward to more rational and unemotional contact with you soon.
[This message has been edited by ChiroGuy (edited May 06, 2002).]
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 26, 2002 8:10:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT
Posts: 271
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From: Chapel Hill
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ChiroGuy,
I feel at the root of this discussion is the realization that DC and DPT students are being equally prepared, with 3 1/2 years of post-BS, BSc, or BA training, for precisely the same thing. To be portal of entry practitioners of choice for neuromusculoskeletal problems.
In this sense, DC's are a bit more focused in that most tend to be want to be solo, private-practice practitioners, in sports medicine and ortho areas of practice. DPT's are a bit more diverse in potential areas of practice ranging from not just the "shake and bake" orthopedics with a dabble of therex that DC's tend to characterize PT --- "shake and bake" or modality driven practice frankly disgusts the most competent of PT's outpatient ortho ranks, as PT is much, much, more than that --- but also neurorehab, pediatric pathokinesiological development, cardiopulmonary rehabilitation, electrophysiological assessment and NCV testing, etc. etc.
In many respects, the turf war with DC's applies only to Doctors of Physical Therapy in sports or orthopedic specialty practice who are competing for the same patients, but only in their own minds. In reality, there is no competition for patients at all.
We are both, DC's and DPT's alike, claiming to be the portal of entry provider of choice for neuromusculoskeletal problems, trained in differential diagnosis and autonomous practice. In the case of neuromusculoskeletal problems, some patients will ALWAYS seek out more traditional leaning, non-surgical care from a DPT before failing with treatment and trying DC, and some patients will ALWAYS seek out more alternative leaning, non-surgical care from a DC before failing with DC and trying DPT care.
If we respected each other as equals, both portal of entry experts in neuromusculoskeletal issues, but with slightly different philosophies, and kept the cross-referrals going, we'd ALL be much happier as healthcare practitioners, and in the end, it's the PATIENT that would benefit.
I fear that due to very clear issues of fear, arrogance, and misunderstanding on ALL sides (DC, DPT, and MD), informed consent of ALL treatment options of other treatment approaches to a structural problem rarely if ever occurs. Some try, that's true, but doesn't this very thread illustrate an inability to do so based upon ignorance of other professions on ALL SIDES???
I hope a greater understanding and collaboration between professional disciplines to be the ultimate legacy of RehabEdge.com.
Drew
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 26, 2002 1:52:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Drew,
Wow, what a great reply! Thank you for responding to us with a very balanced, logical, and non-threatening response. You have represented your profession and your colleagues well(the majority of whom I assume are not as misinformed as Bobcat). As informative as your response was, I'm afraid to say I am still not sure I understand the difference between a PT and a DPT other than years of training. As I understand it from your reply, a DPT must undergo at least 7 1/2 years of post-highschool education, but are they fully trained in the subjects of diagnosis, neurology, nutrition, radiology, orthopedics etc that are necessary for a primary care provider under the current system?
Unfortunately, I don't believe a doctorate in PT is currently recognized in Canada, but I'm not positive and would appreciate it if anyone could confirm this. From your description, I see no reason why DPTs and DCs could not, or even would not, work together and interrefer. I must opine, however, that our skills and services are not interchangeable. Under the current education system in North America, DC's are the only health care practitioners with the years of training and experience in performing spinal manipulation necessary to ensure maximal safety and efficacy of the adjustment. Of course, adjusting is not the be all and end all to musculoskeletal pain management, which is why the services of PT's may also be helpful with many patients. Please remember, though, that DC's DO recieve quite an extensive amount of training in the prescription of therapeutic exercises and stretches.
Thanks for your comments, and I look forward to any replies that may come.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 26, 2002 5:42:00 PM
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Bobcat
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Some indication why you might not want to go to a chiropractor if you might have a real problem, or if you don't have any problem at all:
[URL=http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirovisit.html]http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirovisit.html[/URL]
Please rebut some of the events in this article if you take the time to rebut any of my extreme views.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 26, 2002 8:31:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
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Hey Bobcat,
Thanks again for the helping words. I'm sure you have enlightened many on this site by your wise and evidence-based comments. Not to be repetative, but I'll ask again; what is your professional, or otherwise, status? Are you an MD? A layperson interested in modern chiropractic issues? You seem very knowledgable in current chiropractic research and methodologies, so I'm curious to hear of your background. Thanks for the input! I am slowly beginning to see how the wool has been pulled over my eyes due to your informative and credible information.
Looking forward to your response,
ChiroGuy
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 27, 2002 7:48:00 AM
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David Adamczyk
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Joined: March 14, 1999
From: Cleveland
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RehabEdge would like to thank all of our members who have contributed their thoughts and professional opinions in our Forum.
Welcome to our new members. We hope you will continue to share your experiences with us.
To all members: Please keep the discussions in the RehabEdge Forum on a professional level. We will delete posts that do not follow this simple rule of etiquette.
Thank you.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - January 27, 2002 9:56:00 AM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
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Bobcat wrote :
Please rebut some of the events in this article if you take the time to rebut any of my extreme views.[/B][/QUOTE]
Hey there Bobcat,
Thanks for the opportunity to respond to the webpage you commented on. Sorry to see that the administrator had to remove your fallacious yet comical comments thereafter. Hopefully you'll be able to control your emotions in future replies so that we can have a constructive, rather than destructive, forum to advance physiotherapy and chiropractic for the betterment of society.
In response to the webpage you asked me to evaluate, I find it interesting that you would refer to a site which merely provides an individual account of visits to two clinicians, who incidentally must resort to telemarketing to get new patients rather than referrals from medical doctors and satisfied patients. In addition, this article was written by a partial man who has publicly stated his anti-chiropractic views. Surely Bobcat, as a man (?) with a science background you must understand that not only is anecdotal evidence the least reliable form of data, but also that an account from only 1 individual is virtually useless. I'm sure had you looked harder, you could have found many sites citing a plethora of evidence and stories telling of the horrors of chiropractic. Please do a little more investigation before you refer us to a website in the future.
The fundamental flaw in your logic, of course, is that ANY profession will have members who cause embarrassment and practice unethically or unprofessionally. I can’t tell you the number of people I know who have received incorrect and even injurious treatment from medical doctors. As a matter of fact, I have found that this seems to be WHY many of my colleagues chose to enter chiropractic rather than medicine. And yes, as I’ve said before most people in my class chose to be a DC out of choice, not as a last resort. I myself have been treated in the past by 3 separate physiotherapists and only found relief once I discovered chiropractic. Does this mean that all MD’s and PT’s are misinformed and inadequately trained? Even you must admit this is certainly not the case.
If you would like to find websites which describe the numerous accounts of wacky medicine practiced by medical doctors and physical therapists, I refer you to Google. For the purposes of this forum, however, I propose that we stick to facts rather than opinions; to constructive criticism rather than insults.
Chiroguy
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 18, 2002 4:27:00 PM
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Mitch
Posts: 38
Joined: September 12, 2001
From: Somerdale, NJ
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Plenty of info at [URL=http://www.quackwatch.com]http://www.quackwatch.com[/URL]
re: chiro.
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 18, 2002 6:40:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
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Hey Mitch,
Thanks for trying to help with everyone's understanding of what chiropractic is all about, but unfortunately you've made a poor choice in the critic whose website you decided to inform us of. Dr. Barrett is well known to be an extremely biased critic of almost all non-Western medical treatments, regardless of what evidence there is for alternative therapies. He's one of the few, but very vocal, remaining old guards of the Medical monopoly who feels extremely threatened by fields of medicine he doesn't understand or who threaten to encroach on medicine's territory.
Burton Goldberg, in a review of Dr. Barrett's work expresses the feelings of many in the medical field; traditional and complementary alike :
A "quackbuster," as we've come to know over the years, is someone who is dedicated to casting aspersions on alternative medicine, regardless of whether there is any factual basis. As alternative medicine continues to grow more popular – an estimated 42% of Americans now use it – the "quackbusters" are growing more clamorous in their denunciations of our field. They have to be – they're almost a minority view.
Highly visible among these selfappointed "quackbusters" is Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, author of numerous books, and spokesman for the "Quackwatch" community. Multiple chemical sensitivity, sick building syndrome, foodrelated hyperactivity, mercury amalgam toxicity, candidiasis hyperactivity, Gulf War syndrome – these are all costly misbeliefs and fad diagnoses, says Barrett. "Many Americans believe that exposure to common foods and chemicals makes them ill," he says. "This book is about people who hold such beliefs but are wrong."
Not only are patients wrong, Barrett says, they are "financially exploited as well as mistreated." They are duped by "farfetched" notions and "dubious claims," by headline-crazed media and "toxic television," and by "physicians who use questionable diagnostic and treatment methods."
Regarding Gulf War syndrome, for example, Barrett declares: "It provides a feeding trough for serious scientists, since funding is abundant, and for every charlatan with a newsworthy theory." On the matter of the dangers of mercury fillings, he states: "The false diagnosis of mercuryamalgam toxicity is potentially very harmful and reflects extremely poor judgment."
Barrett appears to be saying that the typical American patient is stupid, hysterical or paranoid, easily duped, and generally incapable of making a rational, correct medical decision on their own. The media is irresponsible and not to be trusted as an information source about medicine, especially about alternatives. Doctors who practice alternative medicine are unscientific, opportunistic frauds or quacks, peddling flawed or junk science.
So who can you turn to – who is not on Barrett's hit list? Conventional doctors. Barrett doesn't say this outright, but it's the only logical conclusion. His message is the old and familiar one from the l950s: the (conventional) doctor knows best.
Hope this adds a bit of balance to the fray Mitch.
Chiroguy
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 1:56:00 AM
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henryryry
Posts: 100
Joined: September 6, 2000
From: Brisbane, Australia.
Status: offline
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Chiroguy,
I personally believe Mirch has chosen a good website to understand chiropractic medicine... if you look through quackwatcher, it does not just attack chiropractic. It attacks magnetic therapy, certain minerals etc. In a sense, they are there to WARN PEOPLE of the dangers these alternative therapies may have to the human body... like chiropractic adjustments in infants and children.
As a subscriber of the "Skeptical Inquirer," it is always interesting to read articles that question the entire concept of chiropractic physicians, never orthodox medicine or physical therapy. yet the majority of the editors are not health professionals (hence, providing a non-biased view, or as they call it, the view from no where).
Henry***
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 5:59:00 AM
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ChiroGuy
Posts: 63
Joined: January 24, 2002
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
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Hi Henry,
Thanks for your input. I always appreciate critical analysis of my responses. Ironically, I think your message outlines my point; that all non-allopathic medical therapies are being attacked unjustly, not just chiropractic. It is beyond me to know how outside observers, with no understanding or even desire to understand complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) can be so critical of their safety and efficacy. Do MD's keep up with high quality CAM research (which, believe me, is becoming quite abundant now)? Other than anecdotal evidence, how do allopaths "know" that CAMs are dangerous? It is merely that these therapies represent something new and outside the realm of traditional training that old school health care providers find them threatening? Could it also be because there's a good chance some of them are more effective than always drugging someone up and putting them under the knife? This may touch a nerve on you (no pun intended [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG], but WHY do you say that adjusting children and infants is inherently wrong? I can understand the emotional aspect (the thought of seeing your child manipulated can be scary because of unfounded safety claims), but what SCIENTIFIC reasons do you have for invalidating them? I hate to break it to you, but a 10 year old has the same muscles and nerves as a 30 year old and usually responds much quicker to manual therapies (as any PT should know).
I am familiar with the Skeptical Inquirer and hate to break to you that many of their "reports" and editorials are loaded with biased and fallacious comments. Using their lack of medical training as a reason for credibility does not make them any more impartial to CAMs; on the contrary I can direct you to many anti-chiropractic websites run by "Chiropractic survivors" who have no medical training. Does this make their opinions valid? Of course not. If I wish, I can start a new newsletter tomorrow telling people of all the PT's who claim to be able to cure cancer in 4 treatments and replace the need for MDs. The very fact that you ADMIT that this publication is not critical of MD's and PT's shows that it is not acting in the interests of patients by critically analyzing all medical procedures. I am amazed that you cite this as a credible reference to prove any points.
To finish my neverending diatribe I'd like to remind you that I am very scientifically oriented, and like most of my colleagues do not subscribe to vitalist theories which are so often criticized. For this reason, I'd appreciate if you'd stick to science rather than fantasy, facts rather than fiction. Merely telling horror stories and reciting dogma printed by medical extremists does not advance patient care; it just serves to degrade the bridge between our professions.
So please, for future responses make factual claims and realize that no profession is without its black sheep - even physiotherapy.
Chiroguy
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Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - February 19, 2002 1:51:00 PM
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henryryry
Posts: 100
Joined: September 6, 2000
From: Brisbane, Australia.
Status: offline
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Chiroguy,
how are those in the skeptical inquirer biased?? you do not need medical training to view the facts and make a judgement - in fact, I have been reading it for the last 3 years, and it is probably the most objective magazine that is based on scientific reasoning rather than fantasy (as put it in your own words). If you want to start up a newsletter on PT's treating cancers, please do, but I think you would run out of material very soon. Furthermore, you stated that MD's drug people and put them under the knife... so much for realizing "that no profession is without its black sheep."
With regards to manipulating kids... you are right, I do not have any scientific evidence against it. But do you have any scientific evidence for it? Furthermore, you mentioned that someone whose is 10 years old has the same structures as those who is 30 years old... and respond faster to treatment. However, children would heal up faster than adults anyway, and probably would be less worried emotionally about a knee strain or a back strain... so why manipulate at all??
All this aside, I agree with you points regarding science and its place in medicine and even alternative therapies, and your points with regards to CAM. Physical Therapy is going through the same change as chiropractic in terms of developing better RCT, and we are finding many treatments to be ineffective (eg, Ultrasound treatment). If we don't produce the evidence, how can we (either physio or chiro) say to the community that we are above placeob?? How can we say that we are more effective in treating musculoskeletal injuries than a pure massage?? We (physio's and chiro's) still have a long journey before we can validate what we do.
It was great talking to you regarding this often controversial matter.
Henry***
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