|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 23, 2001 6:37:00 PM
|
|
|
Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT
Posts: 271
Joined: September 30, 2001
From: Chapel Hill
Status: offline
|
SJ,
No one is arguing that Chiropractors can't use and bill for physical modalities.
As for billing, you are correct that there is no such thing as a physical therapy CPT code, but I never said otherwise. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm weak in billing. I've got an MBA to prove otherwise. I certainly wouldn't have any business as a managment consultant were your assumption truly the case.
I was perhaps, oversimplifying the billing statement that you allude to in your final post, but never said anything at all about CPT codes, so I'm not sure what conversation you're responding to. I think (but I'm not sure) you're right about chiropractors not being defined as physicians in Illinois anymore and as such, can't bill under the 97112, 97116, etc. etc. The only cross-over codes, I belive, are the ones for physical modalities, and the generic therapeutic activity (97110). All of that was, however, besides the following point that you apparently missed:
The EOB for chiropractic services and physical modalities usually reads "physical therapy," regarless of the CPT code billed (e.g. for chiropractic manipulation, physical agent, or therapeutic procedure, etc). It is that which confuses the patient, compounded by the chiropractor's illegal advertising of providing "physical therapy."
Drew
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT (edited November 23, 2001).]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 23, 2001 8:58:00 PM
|
|
|
doc4bax
Posts: 7
Joined: November 15, 2001
From: o'fallon, IL USA
Status: offline
|
Mr. Ball,
Your really beginning to bore me with your threats of reporting me to the Department of Professional Regulation. Why I’m just shaken in my boots! I’m sure you did hours of research writing your pathetic complaint and I would hate to see that go to waste. Send it in so we can move on. By the way out of respect to your profession I have removed "physical therapy" from my webpage. As I said before a definitive answer is still pending from the Illinois Department of Professional Regulation.
Let me add this. Under the Illinois Medical Practice Act of 1987, Chiropractors are STILL licensed as one of the two categories of physicians, accorded the privilege of treating human ailments without the use of prescriptive drugs or operative surgery. The same cannot be said for physical therapists nor DPT. DC's, MD's, and DO's comprise a unified licensing board, a unified disciplinary board and function under a common set of statutory and administrative guidelines. With this in mind I would hate for you not to include any MD’s or DO’s who advertise physical therapy as well. Since your an expert I’m sure you can dig up a few. Make sure you include them in your complaint as well. Since you are defending your profession I would think anyone is fair game or do you find it your duty to target chiropractors exclusively?
Spare us your pathetic interpretation of the law. I’m sure others on the board are getting bored with this. I realize your a Harvard law scholar but spare us. Another thing, why do you continuously quote from other states? I’m still waiting for you to quote some cases involving Illinois. I truly would find this educational. Do you really think the law from other states has any foundation in Illinois? Quit wasting your time! By the way is your Ph.D. going to be in law?
You really should stick to rubbing muscles and quit pretending to be a doctor. Don’t insult my profession by comparing ours with your precious DPT degree. In my opinion your profession is not a discipline that is equal to mine. Quit trying to validate your profession by comparing it mine. I agree your profession deserves much respect. The physical therapists I’ve worked with have always been very intelligent and professional. You seem to be an exception to the rule.
doc4bax
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 23, 2001 10:00:00 PM
|
|
|
Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT
Posts: 271
Joined: September 30, 2001
From: Chapel Hill
Status: offline
|
Dr. Peck,
Now you're starting to aggravate me with your ignorance and disrespect. “You're” means "you are." “Your,” on the other hand, is the opposite of my.
In answer to your question, I'm not attacking MD's nor DO's because I've never come by any that illegally offer "physical therapy" as a service without being licensed to do so. Just you. Furthermore, I'm not attacking all Chiropractors. Some of them are excellent professionals, and I’m pleased to have been reassured over the course of the past few weeks that you don’t speak for all (or even most) of them.
I do have a problem with you because of your continued lack of professionalism, disrespect for the profession of physical therapy as anything more than a bunch of subordinate technicians, while at the same time illegally duping patients into believing that you provide, "physical therapy."
Are you serious in suggesting that I’m trying to validate my profession by comparing it to yours? Why would I want to do that? As if I'm one initially hell-bent on advertising "physical therapy" as a cornerstone of my practice while being licensed as a Chiropractor! Ha! By the way, Physical Therapists can perform grade V mobilizations (just like chiropractors do) but we don't advertise it as Chiropractic care. Why? Because although we may use the same modality, we’re not chiropractors any more than you’re a physical therapist. Nice try though. That almost sounded like a logical argument. "Quit trying to validate your profession by comparing it mine." Please. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black!
You know, you act as though Chiropractors are actually any more effective in treating ailments than physical therapists. Even with your bread and butter --- Low Back Pain --- Chiropractors are no more effective than physical therapists, or a back care booklet for that matter. What, did you not go over the realities of the Cherkin study in your Chiropractic School? You may be able to pull that BS on your unsuspecting patients who put their misguided trust in you, but we here on RehabEdge actually read the peer-reviewed literature on the subject, so get a grip on yourself and loose the delusion of superiority.
This is not an attack upon the profession of Chiropractics, as you suggest, any more than the current War in Afghanistan is an attack on Islam. Your own comments are a commentary upon YOUR lack of professionalism, YOUR questionable ethics, and YOUR respect for practice law. Frankly, had you not joined RehabEdge with the sole purpose of trying to put physical therapists in their place, you wouldn't be so worried about CYA now. Case in point is the removal of “physical therapy,” from your website.
Thank you for that, by the way. Contrary to what you may like to portray of me, I don’t relish the idea of attacking someone else’s livelihood. I’m grateful that it’s no longer necessary.
As for the rest of your posting, I think your ignorance and unprofessionalism speaks for itself. I'm tried of this, and have better things to do than continue responding to an issue that no longer exists because you’ve tucked tail and corrected the problem anyhow. If your website goes back up unchanged, don't say you weren't warned of the consequences.
Drew
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT (edited November 24, 2001).]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 24, 2001 7:47:00 AM
|
|
|
doc4bax
Posts: 7
Joined: November 15, 2001
From: o'fallon, IL USA
Status: offline
|
Mr. Ball,
Thanks for the English lesson. When are you going to learn YOU’RE a therapist and not a doctor? Only you would be offended by such a remark. It just goes to show that somehow you think you’re a doctor and more superior to the average therapist. You may be eligible for a Ph.D. but that won’t change the fact that you work under the authority of a physician. Mr. Ball works under the supervision of a physician who tells him what to do AND IT KILLS HIM! He hates being told by a physician what to do, when to do it and how to do it. As a Ph.D. he’ll do the same and will never be happy.
“Physical Therapists can perform grade V mobilizations (just like chiropractors do) but we don't advertise it as Chiropractic care.” Believe me were glad you don't! Again don’t insult me by comparing your profession to the chiropractic profession. I wouldn’t advertise this either if I were a physical therapist. Considering the hundreds of patients I see each year that tell me the “physical terrorist hurt me”. The “physical terrorist tried to adjust my back and I couldn’t move for a week”. Also if you really dig for the information concerning stroke and cervical manipulation (because I’m sure you’d bring this up) you will find that a physical therapist or medical doctor performed almost all documented cases. You hurt people when it comes to manipulation. When are you going to learn you can’t master the art of manipulation in a few weekend seminars? Stick to rehabbing stroke victims or rubbing backs, this is where you’re proficient.
If you believe the Cherkin study is a valid study you’re a bigger idiot than I thought. Go to chiroweb and do a search. You can read all about the flaws in this sham report. Instead of agreeing with this study you should be outraged and defending your profession. I find it rather comical that you agree your treatment for back pain is as effective as a back care booklet. Chiropractic is much more effective than reading a back care booklet. I would further say physical therapy is also.
It has been very interesting and quite comical talking with you. I’ve decided to move on to another more professional board. Since you're God’s gift to physical therapy I welcome you to bring your BS over to the chiroweb board. I’ll be happy to discuss other topics there. As you would understand I don’t feel welcome here. The chiro board could use a comedian. I’m sure many DC’s would like to hear about you badmouthing their profession. My comments were always directed toward you and only you on this board. As you can see I haven’t talked with anyone else. I certainly will let you know via email what the DPR has to say. Good day and goodbye......
Dr. Peck
[This message has been edited by doc4bax (edited November 24, 2001).]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 24, 2001 9:33:00 AM
|
|
|
mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
|
Dr. Peck:
You're arguments have become abrassive and childish. I am glad you are moving to a different board. But before you go let me inject a few points of sanity.
1. Advertising for physical therapy services performed by anyone other than a physical therapist is wrong and it is a big deal. Period. You obviously don't like the idea of the reverse. Furthermore, we are opposed to physicians advertising this as well, not just DCs.
2. As for working for a doctor.......well, it isn't really bad. Your image of a doctor standing over us and telling us what to do simply isn't true and it is quite helpful in the referral process. We are part of the medical mainstream which is helpful in many cases but not all. In addition, in over 30 states you can see a P.T. without a referral from a physician. The number of states with direct referral is growing quickly.
3. Many PTs do not perform manipulation. But for there are many who do who have trained for years and years. There are schools and degrees in manipulative therapy (some of the best are in Australia) where people learn manual therapy over years of training. When these practicioners choose to employ manipuation they are MORE than qualified to do so.
4. As for the Cherkin study, you have demonstrated a lack of academic training and orientation. You should look at the study and make your own conclusions. But to simply run around and call it a sham is ridiculous. Please, act like a professional. You will notice the McKenzie Institute (that includes Chiropactors by the way) responded with concern and with questions. But they also looked at the study as academics and were willing to explore the implications for clinical practice and for new studies. No one should draw a blanket conclusion from one study and researchers do have their motives....no question. But to run around and decry any study that puts you in a less than positive light is childish and unprofessional.
5. Do you honestly think that I and others haven't had our fair share of patients that claim that Chiropractic treatment made them worse. I have had patients that have been worsened by Chiro treatment both overall and specifically after each and evey treatment. Yet they continued to go for months or even years!! I will always remember one patient that told me that Chiropractic care "absolutely ruined me."
However, I always tried to downplay the effects and proceeded to go on with my own treatments. There are good and bad Chiropractors just as there are good and bad PTs. Not everyone will respond well to particular treatments. But please, act like a professional. Some of your patients didn't do well with PT......BIG DEAL.
Furthermore, with some patients, you should know that they may have to do things that cause pain. This is a tennant in many return to work and multidisciplinary treatment programs.
I would hope that the other chiropractors on this board would have something to say to Dr. Peck and his rantings.
Respectfully,
mcap
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 24, 2001 10:32:00 AM
|
|
|
mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
|
Dr. Peck:
As for your assertion that most cases of stroke following vertebral manipulation were caused by PTs and doctors.....where are you getting this information?
A simple medline search of "spinal manipulation" and "stroke" reveals a host of reported incidents of DC manipulation associated with subsequent VBA lesions and stroke. There was almost nothing about PTs. I personally think manipulation is safe if patients are correctly screened so I am not making accusations. But please.......check your information before posting here. If you wish, I will post the studies and the results. They almost exclusively reported on Chiropractic manipulation.
mcap
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 24, 2001 1:14:00 PM
|
|
|
doc4bax
Posts: 7
Joined: November 15, 2001
From: o'fallon, IL USA
Status: offline
|
"Finally, many of the cases cited by medical researchers as being "chiropractic treatments" were actually spinal manipulations rendered by non-chiropractic practitioners. According a research report in the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, "manipulations" administered by a Kung Fu practitioner, GPs, osteopaths, physiotherapists, a wife, a blind masseur, and an Indian barber had been incorrectly attributed to chiropractors."
[URL=http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/positions/stroke.htm]http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/positions/stroke.htm[/URL]
Dr. Peck
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 24, 2001 2:53:00 PM
|
|
|
henryryry
Posts: 100
Joined: September 6, 2000
From: Brisbane, Australia.
Status: offline
|
Dr Peck,
I had a quick read of this discussion and believe your arguments are becoming very defensive and non-constructive towards this discussion.
I agree with mcap and also have had my share of patients who swear they would never go to a chiropractor again. I also have had patients who say they never go and see a doctor, osteopath, other physio colleague of mine.... (and it just keeps going).
As for your comment with PT's working under physicians... I see it as more working along side physicians and other health professionals. We have respect for one another's profession. For one thing, the body's complex network requires a multi-disciplinary approach, and not just a musculoskeletal part.
As with kung fu masters and indian barbara's doing manipulations.... manipulations have been done by many other professions, and coming from Asia, it is certainly widely practiced by non-trained professionals. It is not owned by the chiropractic profession. However, to attribute many studies to this is transfering and shifting both the responsibility and blame. Mckenzie himself have come out and said that the knowledge and management of low back pain in physical therapy has not greatly improved in the last 10 years (Twomey and Taylor, "Physical Therapy for the low back"). I think the majority of PT's recognize the amount of work that still needs to be done.
There are in fact many non-medical websites and magazines (such as the "skeptical enquirer") who are against chiropractic profession for the damage it has done to the public, and devote sections to expose chiropratic quakary to the public. One such website is the Canadian Health Watcher. Have a read of this... you should find it quite horrifying.
[URL=http://www.chirowatch.com/]http://www.chirowatch.com/[/URL]
Henry***
PS - My favourite quote regarding chiropractic subluxation theory is: "There is not an absence of evidence, but an evidence of absence."
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 26, 2001 2:12:00 AM
|
|
|
Hirsch
Posts: 43
Joined: October 16, 2000
From: Germany
Status: offline
|
Reading these posts brings to mind the Tom and Jerry Cartoons where Tom pulls out a knife and Jerry pulls out a gun, Tom pulls out a bigger gun, Jerry pulls out a cannon, Tom pulls out a howitzer, Jerry pulls out an A-Bomb etc etc....Drew and Dr. Peck...why not call each other and resolve your differences? Peace!
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 26, 2001 3:05:00 AM
|
|
|
mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
|
Let's hope it doesn't progress to itchy and scratchy!!!!!!
That aside........as a PT, I appreciate Drew's passionate defense of our profession. We would be better off if many of our rank and file weren't soo passive.
Later,
mcap
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 26, 2001 2:35:00 PM
|
|
|
Wisecracker
Posts: 70
Joined: November 15, 2001
Status: offline
|
mcap and others,
I am not trying to take sides or invoke a flame-a-thon, but feel compelled to add that much of the literature concerning CVA and DC c-spine SMT is rife with mistakes, if not out and out intellectual dishonesty.
Case in point: Stroke following chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. By Hufnagel, Hammers, Schoenle, et al. Published in 1999 in the Journal of Neurology.
The title would infer some level of chiropractic copability. However, once the paper is read it becomes clear that the n=10 of stroked patients is made up of 7 MD orthopedists, 2 unspecified healthcare providers (turns out to be massage therapists), and 1 PT. Not a DC in the bunch. Additionally, the level of training of the practitioners, diagnositic work-ups obtained, etc, etc etc were never mentioned.
So how is it that "chiropractic manipulation" was in the title? I don't really know, though a neurologist told me "isn't all manipulation de facto chiropractic?"
Just one such example.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 26, 2001 6:09:00 PM
|
|
|
Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT
Posts: 271
Joined: September 30, 2001
From: Chapel Hill
Status: offline
|
That sounds like an interesting study, and I'll try to get my hands on it sometime over the next few weeks. If your analysis is correct, DPTs should join with DC's in denouncing the value of this study.
Physical therapists, the honest ones anyway, don't ever claim manipulation. Some, however, are trained in the use of Grade V mobalizations, which turn out to be essentially the same thing. Cyriax was a pivotal figure in our profession, who built his fame on grade V mobs.
Drew
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 27, 2001 3:37:00 AM
|
|
|
DocK
Posts: 1
Joined: November 26, 2001
From: PGH, PA USA
Status: offline
|
Hi Folks,
Interesting discussions, I appreciate that I can post on your board.
I hope I can offer some meaningful exchange of ideas and concepts.
Dr. Ball,
I specifcally have some questions for you.
I ref, the DC/PT/Booklet study in one of your posts...do you see anything lacking in theb design of this study??
I look forward to your input.
DocK
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 27, 2001 4:49:00 AM
|
|
|
Andrew M. Ball MS MBA PT
Posts: 271
Joined: September 30, 2001
From: Chapel Hill
Status: offline
|
Dock,
Great question. Now we're getting somewhere! By the way, I'm not a Ph.D. yet . . . so though Dr. Ball has a nice ring to it, Drew will do just fine (smile).
My answer to you is a cautioned yes. There are TONS of philosophical problems with this study (but that's not exactly the same thing as a study design flaw) with this study, but not as many as the FCER would like for everyone to believe. For example:
First, Acute LBP, not Chronic LBP was studied, and though some Chiropractors complain that Cherkin examined long-term effect and not short-term relief, I've got mixed feelings on this issue. Shouldn't our goal be to cure LBP, and not treat it as a lifelong chronic condition? On the other hand, what techniques are most effective in offering short-term relief? Shouldn't we try to make the patient feel better on their way out the door than on the way in? Even if we KNOW that there isn't going to be a long term effect in most cases?
To reduce Chiropractic to manipulation alone is as inappropriate as the tendency of some Chiropractors to reduce physical therapy to McKenzie back exercises and physical modalities alone.
Some chiropractic researchers (e.g. Rosner) complain that, "editorial comments to the principal authors of studies have clearly indicated that obtaining negative results for spinal manipulation was the criterion for acceptability for publication. Thus it is with dismay that this writer finds two inferior and widely-publicized studies in chiropractic which did get published in the New England Journal of Medicine. (extensive rebuttals of which have been published elsewhere). Statements by two previous editors of the New England Journal of Medicine offer little encouragement, as they have been patently biased with little qualification in their negative assessments of alternative medicine." Welp, Rosner's got a point that there is a bias against chiropractic in the medical community and that there is a skewed publication bias here . . . but if that's his only argument, he can conduct a meta-analysis and calculate a Rosenthal's failsafe-n to test the magnitude of effect of the existing literature, and how many/how powerful a group of studies would have to be to overturn the suggestion of the currently published research. He can only “cry racism” so long before it gets tiring. He’s got a valid point, but he should address it objectively though the Rosenthal-n and submit it for publication, not continue wining about Chiropractic Oppression . . . though I certainly can understand his frustration.
As for the study design, a modified pretest-posttest control-group design is not inappropriate. The alternation to not have a control group is often made in order to deal with clinical populations ethically. If the researcher does not wish to withhold treatment, then between-group differences are focused upon. as follows, where R is a randomized group, 0 is observation, and X is one of three interventions:
R O X1 O
R O X2 0
R 0 X3 0
Some have argued that it's difficult to match and randomize patients with acute LBP because etiology of injury, pain perception, etc. are different from patient to patient. I agree, but this would have jumped out were statistically significant differences found between groups. As none were, this point is more academic than relevant for our discussion.
Though some chiropractors have charged that the study design was poorly constructed. The design described above is not inappropriate for this purpose, esp. if we consider that research is a process and one study does not a truth make. That said, the Cherkin study did not examine within group independent variables (e.g. what if one of the Chiropractors was a horrible clinician and pulled the group effect down so far that DC services were deemed equivocal with every other technique?) A multifactoral experimental design would have been more appropriate because with more than one Chiropractor, more than one PT, and patient intellect playing a factor in the booklet group . . . it's inappropriate to draw such broad generalizations about treatment effectiveness when within-group interactions were not examined.
The study maybe could have been done better, but the fact remains that there were no between group differences for this situation of LBP using these clinicians. What we don't know is how significant one or two "bad apples" may be in skewing results in one or all groups. It therefore not appropriate to generalize these results in the way that the AMA has done, but the study should serve as a HUGE wake up call to DC's and PT's alike.
As I've said on RehabEdge time and time again, attacking the validity of a study is only good for about a year or two after publication. After that, one needs to, "put up or shut up," because the flawed study begins to gain political strength the longer it stands unchallenged by a follow-up study.
Anyone interested in collaboration along these lines?????
Drew
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 27, 2001 7:18:00 AM
|
|
|
mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
|
Drew:
These are good points. I do think that the study was designed to show no effect from intervention. But, it was a worthwhile endeavor. And....if one group truly thinks they have more to offer, then it is up to them to show an effect with a well designed trial.
The McKenzie Institutes critiques of the study were as follows........1. The data may have been negatively skewed. The results from one center were significantly better than the other. Why was that?
2. Self reported compliance was low (about 55%, I think). McKenzie techniques are dependent on patient compliance.
3. Non-reponders had to be treated. One of the main values of the method is that non-responders are identified early. Patients then are free to try other interventions or the clinician is free to use other methods.
4. Not from the institute.........McKenzie is usually used in conjunction with other therapies.
5. Acute LBP is not the best condition to study. So far, almost nothing has been shown to have a long term effect. However, I would not classify it as self-limiting. Recent research has demonstrated otherwise. I have always felt that the best time to intervene is in the subacute phase when the patients are appropriate. Many patients would be better off having their red flags cleared and then avoid becoming medicalized with an uncessary diagnostic label and uncessesary treatment. There is evidence that patients do worse when they are labeled.
As for the Chiropractic concerns, I can not comment with any authority. There may be a bias against them in various situations. However, as far as I can remember, the literature in many of the task forces (such as AHCPR) was reviewed somewhat evenly. Much of their research contributed to the recommondation of manipulation for pain releif in acute LBP. In further task force reviews however, manipuation has not been determined to offer more than short term benefit. Doesn't mean that it doesn't.....just that it isn't proven yet.
So.......Drew is correct. If you unhappy with the results........it's time to publish. To overcome bias......it's best to engage in studies with respected researchers who aren't Chiropractors. And it's best to seek publication in mainstream journals such as Spine (I have seen DCs publish there on many occaisions).
Clinical research, especially for LBP is really difficult to do. And.....in study after study most things don't appear to have a lasting effect. That's just reality. Complaining about it however won't work. Think of the opportunity. For the group that comes up with a truly great study, and demonstrates a significant, long term effect, the benefits may be tangible.
mcap
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 27, 2001 3:41:00 PM
|
|
|
DPDC
Posts: 13
Joined: November 13, 2001
From: Corvallis, OR, USA
Status: offline
|
Wow, looks like this discussion has stirred up a hornets nest. Maybe a few of us should take a deep breath (serenity now).
I think it’s good to be passionate about your profession, I know I am. But, Doc4bax that passion does not give you license to belittle the abilities of our PT brethren (and sistren). You know that many are competent diagnosticians. If you have been in practice for any amount of time I can guarantee that there have been cases where your care has failed and a PT has succeeded. Certainly some of those cases came from a difference in technique more appropriate for that case. Others came from an assessment, different from yours that proved to be more accurate. Yeah, I know, you’ve also succeeded where PT has failed. But that just proves my first point.
Doctor means teacher. You know PTs are competent in that capacity, and maybe even better than we are in many cases. Yeah, I know they can’t diagnose according to some state’s scope of practice laws but the fact remains, they do an assessment on every patient regardless of what scope of practice, insurance billing laws or some guy in a white coat wrote on a prescription pad.
Don’t pretend to be so high and mighty. You know there are some chiropractors out there who are an embarrassment. I think the PTs would admit the same thing about some of their peers. So we both have examples of bad apples. Chiropractors are more visible because we must do our own marketing and we compete with the medical/pharmaceutical/third party payer establishment. An establishment the PT profession is securely aligned with.
Drew, technically you have a point with Doc4bax’s website claiming to offer “Physical Therapy.” He should have said “physiotherapy.” But, threatening to file a complaint doesn’t help this dialog. It just brings a little bit of misery on some poor schmuck’s life even if that schmuck came on with an abrasive introduction.
Bobcat, you paint with a pretty broad brush on your Top Ten list. I don’t have time now to address your “Top Ten” “Arguments” (which aren’t actually ten when you consider the six or seven variations of one “argument”). But it will be fun (and easy) to dissect your attempt to sound profound and philosophical.
For the most part, it’s nice to see a little (mostly) civil inter-professional dialog. There are obviously strengths each discipline brings to the arena of patient care and in a perfect world, these strengths could certainly complement each other. Remember, we share many of the same concerns. Our divisions and conflicts ultimately arise from the beast known as the third party payer system. Without that bizarre means of getting paid, we would all be on a level playing field, free to compete or cooperate in a truly free market.
Don Peterson, DC
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 27, 2001 6:08:00 PM
|
|
|
mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
|
Well put!!!!!! And agreed!!!!
mcap
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - November 29, 2001 10:58:00 AM
|
|
|
Ron
Posts: 105
Joined: January 8, 2001
Status: offline
|
See what you miss when you don't keep up with your forums. Boy this is a good one. The area I have chosen to practice in has a high percentage of DC's. I have heard it all, manipulations for chest colds, allergies, and my favorite "maintenance" . I have always been amazed at the xray interpetations. I have not had one of my patients (former DC patients) with a normal Xray report. Mmmmmm how can that be? I have to keep watch on the advertising as well, and support the need to stop the unauthorized use of "Phyisical Therapy" terminology. I recently had to use the same track Dr.Ball used, however it was a massage therapist who had stepped over the line.That aside I must also say that I have been associated with many DCs who are well trained in manipulations and use perscription of exercise appropriately. I have always felt that a PT and a DC could make a GREAT treatment team, obviously as evidenced by this thread, it is difficult at best, and I have not accomplished what would seem logical. I trained in manipulation techniques under Cyriax, his methods produce great results but require significant skill. His team of trainers, (yes the gals in his book) were wonderful instructors,and although you could get the basics in his week long courses, it took years to be proficient and at least that long to sit for his exam to be certified. I am sure we have PTs who are dangerous with manipulations just as there are DCs who are dangerous , but also I am sure there are PTs and DCs doing wonderful things with the techniques as well. Let us all not try to be something we are not.
Proud to be an American, and a PT......
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! - December 5, 2001 8:19:00 PM
|
|
|
hpowell
Posts: 1
Joined: December 5, 2001
From: Salem, Missouri
Status: offline
|
As a practicing chiropractic physician and pt I can truly say that I have been considered a primary care provider in my state. Being in a medically underserved area I see patients daily for numerous problems that have not been seen by previous providers. We are the portal of entry into the health care system for many of these people. It is my responsibility as a licensed health care provider to be able to determine what type of care is in the best interest of the patients. I have the ability to determine when a persons situation may not be within my scope of practice and the knowledge and experience to know when a referal is required.
AS to the inclusion of DC's into the VA, this has been years coming. Numerous studies have been done by the government showing the effectivness of chiropractic services within the military setting in addition to the VA. This was situation was not created because of "politics" but out of necessity.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
0.188
|
Printable Version
All Forums >> [RehabEdge Forum] >> Open Forum >> Re: Chiropractic madness!!!!!!!!!!!! 
