Lets review some literature. (Full Version)

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Dr.Wagner -> Lets review some literature. (February 8, 2006 2:32:00 AM)

Lets review some literature, some studies.

We shall place some demanding criteria on to them, and we can either review a PT study or a recent Medical study (I will supply).

Any thoughts?




Sean Weatherston -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 8, 2006 7:34:00 AM)

Sounds great to me Wags.

How about something medical that would be helpful with something we might come across in direct access states?




JSPT -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 8, 2006 8:52:00 AM)

Sounds good. I think Sean's suggestion would be great. How about some recognizing side-effects of various meds (Parkinson's pt. suddenly becomes more lethargic, for example)?




FLAOrthoPT -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 8, 2006 10:16:00 AM)

or how about we all go to hookedonevidence.org
and submit a review of literature under a group headin gof Rehabedge. I have submitted a critique on there already. But let's all do it, it is a great way to look at the bottom line of a research article...




Dr.Wagner -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 9, 2006 4:16:00 AM)

I have a ton of articles from the bazillion journals I recieve monthly. Give me a couple of days.

I must warn you, I am particularly hard on articles...as I was taught to shred most of them for method flaws and bias.

So what I will do is to link with an article, have you guys read it, then we can discuss the article and critique.




SJBird55 -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 9, 2006 6:32:00 AM)

You know... is it always good to shred something published to pieces? I would believe that generally the folks publishing information are doing their best. Of course there will always be flaws and bias, but it is probably a good idea to also see what can be taken of value from an article while recognizing the flaws.




connie.pt -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 11, 2006 4:32:00 PM)

Looking foreward to it.




Shill -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 12, 2006 11:51:00 AM)

This is a great idea. One of the things I like to look into, is clinical relevance of the research. When a journal arrives, this is the first thing I look for.

Steve




srcase -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 12, 2006 12:15:00 PM)

I'm in. I've been wanting to start a journal club for years! Can't find enough people interested. This is cool.
Sarah




Dr.Wagner -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 13, 2006 5:47:00 AM)

Sorry, I have been EXTEMELY busy with work and some other educational activities.

I will get along with this very soon.




Dr.Wagner -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 13, 2006 5:57:00 AM)

Ok here is a FREE article. A mixture of medicine and rehab.

So.

Find the strong points and the weak points.

Does the article support the conclusions?

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/105/2/57




Synergy -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 13, 2006 8:04:00 AM)

Doc Wags,

Here's the [URL=http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/reprint/105/2/57.pdf]PDF[/URL] version for those that wish to view it that way. :)




Sean_Collins -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 22, 2006 3:11:00 AM)

I like this idea - will be happy to share thoughts on this paper once I read through it. Somehow finding the time to be more involved with this forum is more challenging than I had expected. Thank you to Dr Wagner for taking the role on so many aspects of the Medical Complexity forum.
Going to work now - but taking the article with me for reading and commenting.
Best -
Sean




Sean_Collins -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 23, 2006 3:32:00 AM)

While not in my area of clinical expertise (which happens to be cardiovascular and pulmonary pt, rehab, and physiology in general); I do also teach and have a lot of experience with research methods.

I found this article refreshing from a methodological perspective in many ways. Even in areas where issues can arise, the authors are perhaps even harder on themselves than most critiques might be (in regard to something like selection bias because they could not "randomly" sample). Random sampling, while the only way to be sure you are not obtaining a biased sample in some way is almost a foolish concept for clinical research, depending on the question being asked of course.
For example - this paper did not randomly sample from the full population of people meeting their inclusion and not meeting their exclusion criteria, but rather sampled from those at a particular hospital, during a particular time period, and of only those that actually presented to a hospital (not that sought other treatments for the same pain syndrome).
But, they are interested in specifically answering the question of which technique is better for the patients that do "self select" to visit the ER, so in many ways having a random sample from the full variance of people with neck pain would not be helpful since the question starts with "people that have the pain AND decide to visit the ER for it."
So, I guess I am saying they were able to do this with their design.
They comment on whether they could "blind the subjects" or the physicians providing care. I dont think such a methodological process is possible to answer this question. The only blinding that I think could have happened is that of analysis. So the analyst only knows that these two groups are different - but not how they are different.

In terms of placebo - would have been possible but certainly would have reduced statistical power given the small sample size. I do not agree with their assessment of why placebo is not possible with manual techniques - if there is a "powerful psychological pacebo effect of the laying of hands" then this is exactly what you are trying to rule out as an alternative cause of the intervention response.
The sample size is soooo important, and it is small because of the rigor of the inclusion and exclusion criteria for eliminating alternative explanations. The designers of this study knew their limitations in terms of sample size and designed an appropriate study based on that limitation - I commend them for this.

One thing I would add - which makes clinical trials weak (in my opinion) is that they are based entirely on this concept of "randomization" and "chance" that attempts to make clinicians ignore the clinical reasoning that is not removed from actual clinical practice. For example - since we have to randomize patients in a trial like this - we remove the possibliity that the physician might have decided that a particular patient would have been better off for their particular neck pain to recieve manipulation and others meds. The only good thing of this is that when you find a significant difference you are more accepting of an actual cause - effect since this "watering down" (that is created by having some people randomized into meds that might have been better off for some unaccounted for reason recieving manipulation, or vice versa) creates a bias to the null - in other words makes it harder to find a statistically significant effect.

Finally - the ONLY thing I would have changed is the analysis. In addition to the "stratification" approach utilized very effectively I think a regression or factorial anova approach that allows combining several of the questions they asked by dividing the sample into several different strata. By looking at a few strata at a time with a regression or factorial model they could have tested for interactions that might be very useful to know.
Before I write more - I guess I am interested in what other people thought.
Best -
Sean




Dr.Wagner -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 27, 2006 5:10:00 AM)

I think there are MAJOR issues with this paper.

Let us first look at their Premise:
"Ketorolac (brand name Toradol...the only perenteral NSAID in the US) has been shown to be an effective analgesic in treating patients with acute musculoskeletal pain in the (ED)"...well it is effective and used quite often (I use it daily)...but this primary contention can be debated as well. In a study by Turrturo in 1994, there was no difference in analgesia between Oral Ibuprofen and IM Ketorolac.

So effectively this waters down their initial contention. In other words, we could state "Ibuprofen has been shown to be the drug of choice and an effective analgesic in treating patients with musculoskeletal pain." That is the gold standard...NOT Ketorolac.

More to come.

(this is a nice and accurate way to break down arguments)




Sean_Collins -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 27, 2006 2:06:00 PM)

Dr Wagner - how does this first premise speak to the quality of this trial from a research perspective? As far as I can tell all you are saying is they used IM Toradol and they might have been able to use Oral Ibuprofen. And that someone in 1994 showed these two drugs had similar effects.
I must be missing something on how this matters for their study showing causation of reduced pain with manual therapy. If they have watered down their contention - do you mean biased their study toward the null by having patients in both groups taking oral ibuprofen which is just as effective as Toradol? And, if this is what you mean, then doesn't a significant finding, in spite of bias toward the null indicate a more significant effect?




Dr.Wagner -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 28, 2006 3:03:00 PM)

I am sorry I am late on replies.

Perhaps I should rephrase my initial critique and make it more understandible.

They are NOT using the gold standard for comparison. Furthermore, in EM literature and evidence based practice, Toradol is not frequently used...primarily because it is no better than Ibuprofen yet has MANY side effects.

In essence...WHY make this comparison? It is as if they SKIPPED the gold standard med and went after a second line med...for no reason.




Dr.Wagner -> Re: Lets review some literature. (February 28, 2006 3:18:00 PM)

Let us look at the NEXT statement in the abstract.

Primarily Methodology.

RCT in 3 ED's (ok)
58 patients over 3 1/2 years...OK OK, you have to be kidding at this part. Either a HUGE amount of patients declined to participate, or someone fell asleep on this study for 2 years. To gather THAT FEW PATIENTS over THAT LONG OF A TIME is horrific. 58 neck pains in 3 EDs in Texas is likely one month of patients. If that many people declined...who the hell agreed?


More to come




Sean_Collins -> Re: Lets review some literature. (March 1, 2006 1:29:00 PM)

Dr. Wagner - I appreciate what you are saying, but what is the state of evidence that Toradol is not worth comparing the manual techniques that they utilized. I guess what I am saying is - from a research methods perspective this study is designed in a manner that minimizes bias and confounding in demonstrating an effect of manual therapy in reducing neck pain. I agree with you that the number of patients seems small, which raises questions, and I do not recall whether they report the number of patients meeting the inclusion criteria that refused participation. If this number is large - then there is the potential for selection bias. But we would have to have a good reason for thinking the the people that agreed to participate were more likely to report a favorable outcome from manual therapy than those that did not for this to be a systematic bias resulting in a Type I error.

So - for anyone reading - we are identifying two major considerations in the review of clinical trials. First, how is the clinical question asked - what do they chose as a comparison sample, how does the method match what is done in clinical practice. This should all be appropriately justified, and what Dr. Wagner is saying is a resounding no.
Second is the question of causation - is it being appropriately addressed in the study. This is a question of biological plausibility, coherence, sensitivity, statistical inference/measure of effect, temporality, secondary causes, etc.
This is fun!




SJBird55 -> Re: Lets review some literature. (March 1, 2006 1:43:00 PM)

Low n value, but MVA was an exclusionary factor. What are the main reasons a person goes to the ER for cervical pain? What was the definition of "bony abnormality?" Maybe it would have been a better study if the location of provided services was a family physician office?

I didn't really read the thing - it isn't clinically relevant to me. I don't stick anyone with needles. :)




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