Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (Full Version)

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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS -> Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (April 8, 2004 3:19:00 AM)

Hi all. I was wondering what the thoughts were on the teaching of manipulation of the spine in entry level PT programs. We have debated the efficacy of spinal manipulation on the lumbar spine on this forum before and we know there is good current evidence for the use of it. Should it be taught at entry level? Does anyone teach techniques to students when they are in your clinic on student clinicals? Also, please read the acrobat file on this topic on the APTA's orthopaedic section website here [URL=http://www.orthopt.org/csm/6739.pdf]http://www.orthopt.org/csm/6739.pdf[/URL]
What are your thoughts?

ArmyPT

[This message has been edited by ArmyPT (edited April 08, 2004).]




MPT -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (April 8, 2004 4:56:00 AM)

If we say manipulation is a PT modality then it should be taught to some degree in school. If more PTs manipulate then we will have a better chance of keeping it in our practice acts.

I often feel that schools are afraid to teach manipulation for some reason. Maybe it is because the professors are not comfortable with it. We got some basic instruction in thoracic and peripheral manips in school but cont. ed is where I learned the most.


[This message has been edited by MPT (edited April 09, 2004).]




durst mary -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 7, 2004 11:20:00 AM)

attention amy
If you want to do spinal manipulation on your patiets i would sujest going back to school and get your training in chitropractic college this way you will have the training to be licensed and be allowed to practice chiropracti medicine with a lisense . or you cxould take classes taght by the Upledger instiut on crainal sacral therapy JohnUpledger is a Dr of Osteopathic medicine.




Bournephysio -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 7, 2004 12:55:00 PM)

Mary,

Manipulation is a technique used by many professions including chiropractors, osteopaths and physiotherapists.

There are many post-graduate programs in physiotherapy that teach manipulation. What Army is asking is if manipulation should be taught in entry level physiotherapy programs.

Army,

Here in Canada peripheral manips (talus, lunate) are often taught. Mobilizations using positions that we manip out of are also taught (I can only comment on one school for that). I don't think that masters or bachelors programs should teach spinal manips. I think DPTs should at least learn some basic lumbar and or thoracic manips. More advanced techniques should be left to fellowship/intership/post-graduate programs.

Cranio sacral therapy is a bunch of BS.

Doug




Bill Egan -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 7, 2004 1:53:00 PM)

Doug,

I agree that basic manipulative interventions should be taught to all entry level PT students. This should include mobilization and high velocity thrust technqiues. This allows students and new graduates to use evidence based practice when working with low back pain. This also removes much of the unecessary and frivolous mistique and dogma surrounding spinal manipulation. Currently there is an APTA task force in the states that is trying to promote and facilitate the teaching of spinal manipulation in entry level PT education.

I second the opinion on cranial technqiue.

Bill




Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 7, 2004 1:54:00 PM)

It is my opinion that because manipulation is a technique legal for a PT to perform in the military, and in all but one or two states that there should be some training in physical therapy programs, especially in DPT programs.

Currently, all programs have significant training in spinal mobilization, but not all train students in grade 5 mobilization/manipulation.

Frankly though, who the heck cares? I've been schooled in grade 5's, but it's been almost 12 months since I used one. Patients generally get better results with grade 4 mobs anyhow. True it takes a few vists, but lasts longer term without weekly or monthly "tune ups" and doesn't have the effect of de-stabilization the spine and creating more problems than it helps.

Drew




Bill Egan -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 7, 2004 1:58:00 PM)

Drew,

Your comments surrounding grade 4 vs. grade 5 are unfounded. It is just this type of thinking that scares PT's away from using thrust manipulation. I'd like to see a study that supports the theory that manipulation causes de-stabilization of the spine. I just don't buy it.

Bill




mcap56 -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 8, 2004 7:27:00 AM)

I think this is a good debate and one that needs further attention. I have a few points;

1. When discussing the merits of manipulation I don't think we can begin by saying there is definitely solid research behind it. There isn't. When the evdience is reviewed by manipulators, they emerge convinced of the merits. When it is reviewed by expert task forces and researchers, the conclusions are far different. So far, most of the evidence I have seen (and admittedly, I haven't seen it all) seems to point to short term benefits only.

2. Students in PT programs have limited time for hands on techniques. They should master mobilization first. If there is time and expertise, then I don't see much wrong with teaching manipulation. McKenzie has just dropped manipulation from part D because it was felt there wasn't enough time.

3. In terms of the safety debate. I beleive it has been overblown. Manipulation is safe if done on the appropriate patients. However, you can't necessarily compare the safety of mobilizaiton and manipulation because there are differnt perceptions. If a relatively new PT increases a patients pain with manipulation (without negligence, poor technique, etc.), the patients concern and potential complaints, lawsuits etc are more likely to occur, even if nothing was done wrong. Manipulation may be every bit as safe as mobilizaton but there are different perceptions by patients, referral sources, etc.

4. I find it funny that we keep debating manipulation when the evidence is becoming overwhelming that psychosocial factors have a lot more to do with outcome in recurrent and chronic cases (these are the patients we really need to treat). The way the therapist talks to a patient, what they say, medicalization of the patient and attitude probably go much further in determinintg outcome than choosing the right manual technique. YET.....how many PTs can tell you what a yellow flag is? How many can explain the biopsychosocial model?

5. I have not taught manipulation in my classes yet but I don't think it's wrong. On the merits however, it may be overkill. There are far more important things that are not getting taught. Perhaps that is what we should be worried about.

mcap




Bill Egan -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 8, 2004 8:43:00 AM)

Mcap,

I agree that the big picture and biopsychosocial model of LBP needs to be taught in PT school.
For my spine class in the Army-Baylor Program we read Waddel's Back Pain Revolution.

With your comment regarding the evidence, yes the evidence is mostly for short-term benefit. What other intervention for LBP has more evidence to support it than manipulation ?

When teaching manipulation, I would not advocate it or any other manual therapy as a panacea. Manipulation is a tool, supported by the evidence, than can rapidly reduce pain and improve motion. Other interventions can than quickly be utilized: stabilization, conditioning, advice to stay active etc.

Bill




jma -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 8, 2004 11:16:00 AM)

Hello,
I would hope that manipulations would be included in future classes. Although, there is one incident that has the chiropractic board against a PT, who has been accused of performing a technique that "only" a chiropractor can perform. I do not know the current status of this inquiry. Even if manipulation is taught, what is to stop the chiropractic board, in that particular state, from going after those PT's who perform them?

JMA




chiroortho -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 8, 2004 11:36:00 AM)

jma,

Chiros are going after PTs and PTs are going after chiros. This is just a fact of life in the turf war world.

Now if we can look beyond that, and I think we should, I would strongly support the teaching of manipulative therapy in PT schools if PTs are going to be allowed to use manipulation. Learning SMT at a conference is much different than learning it under the tutelage of an experienced instructor that can evaluate your progress individually, critique you, and watch you perform it again and again.

This is untenable logistically at conferences.

I'm all for conferences; I offer them! But there is no way to adequately assess the skill sets for manual therapy without having lengthy exposure of the trainee to the trainer.

Greg




mcap56 -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 8, 2004 12:20:00 PM)

All good points. As for better evidence, the segmental stabilization studies point to a much longer lasting benefit alhtough the control groups in those studies did not get much. However, it still is superior to most of what we use.

There are also some good studies pointing to exercise in general, functional restoration, etc.

But....I don't disagree with teaching manipulation. I just don't currently have the time to put it in classwise.

mcap




PTstud -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 8, 2004 2:17:00 PM)

Hello,
We are taught manipulations in school, but they are low amplitude high velocity, contrast that to the chiro's high amplitude high velocity. We are also taught to never manip the C-spine but everything else is fair game.

durst mary - Cranio Sacral therapy has been found to have poor inter-rater reliability. In other words, its bologna.

Mike




chiroortho -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 8, 2004 5:06:00 PM)

Actually Stud, DCs are taught HVLA primarily.

Greg




jma -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 8, 2004 6:58:00 PM)

Chiroortho,
I personally have no problems with DC's, although I cannot say the same with the majority of those who are at odds with the DC profession. Better to work with each other than against one another. Would be nice to one day see DC's teaching manipulation along side PT's.

JMA




chiroortho -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 9, 2004 4:25:00 PM)

JMA, I agree that both professions can learn from each other.

I'm going to venture out a little here and say that DCs could learn a lot from PTs particularly in the hands-on rehab arena, e.g. use of high/low tech rehab protocols. And I think that DCs could offer PTs some excellent ideas about SMT.

But both issues, rehab and SMT, require close supervision, critique and instruction. Not weekend seminars.

I'm a supporter of your profession, JMA. I'm not antagonistic in any way (at least, not on purpose). What I would like to see is an expansion of the cross-exposures of our professions so that our patients could benefit.

The turf battles are not an issue for me.

Greg




jma -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 9, 2004 5:22:00 PM)

Chiroortho,
On this we agree and its a start in the right direction. I hope this collaboration can spread to both sides with equal accords.

JMA




PTupdate.com -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 10, 2004 4:16:00 AM)

I'd much rather see students focus more on the basics, versus jumping to something more advanced..ie not putting the cart before the horse. I still see interns lacking some of the more basic thought processes they need for their patinets' best care. They can learn manipulation and other skills down the road, when their manual skills have refined enough to ascertain what level really needs manipulated.

As Mcap points out, there is such a heavy influence of psychosocial issues in our patient care. Manipulation may help feed into, or even help the process. Let's face it....many people like manipulated. It does not matter to them that there is no heavy scientific evidence to support it...they have learned over the years that when they have a problem, and someone maniplates them (their chiro, DO, or even older brother) they get relief. Maybe one days worth, maybe one year.

John Duffy, PT OCS
[URL=http://www.PTupdate.com]www.PTupdate.com[/URL]




jma -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 10, 2004 4:38:00 AM)

Hello,
Yes, I agree that the basics should be taught to entry level programs. Of course, one could also ask, what are the basics that can be taught? This also is up to debate. However, I can see more advanced techniques in an advanced masters' program or post DPT programs, if there are concerns with teaching at the entry level. Good points.

JMA




Bill Egan -> Re: Should manipulation be taught in Entry Level Physical Therapy Programs? (May 10, 2004 6:30:00 AM)

All,

My point is that manipulation is easy to learn and should not be considered "advanced." If students learn this from the beginning, they will not have to spend time and money going to courses where they won't teach you thrust manipulation until you've invested thousands of dollars.
With the DPT especially, PT students should be learning everything they need to treat spinal pain

Bill




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