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Re: DC's - May 16, 2005 12:15:00 PM
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dosrinc
Posts: 335
Joined: December 9, 2004
From: Bonita Springs
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Jason, let me be the first to say I am glad you are a PT, that is some extensive work. Thank you!
Rick
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Re: DC's - May 16, 2005 12:50:00 PM
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karmzack
Posts: 181
Joined: March 20, 2005
From: Hawaii
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Bravo Jason, I do have issues with podiatry though, but it may just be my experience with two podiatrISTS.
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Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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Re: DC's - May 16, 2005 2:00:00 PM
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Synergy
Posts: 592
Joined: March 11, 2004
From: Texas
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Nicely summed up Jason and I as well as you (and others) have a problem with the -TIC and usually not the -TOR. :)
In regards to mall screenings, in my short time as a PT, I have seen it all. I work in the same facility with a chiropractic group. They're constantly out doing screenings. Currently, they are setting up a blood drive at our clinic. This is a good thing...people coming to give blood, but what they don't realize (poor bastards) is that they'll also receive a screening with surface EMG and whatever else.
I'm near the point of hysteria working there to say the least. :)
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Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: DC's - May 16, 2005 5:56:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
Joined: May 9, 2005
From: Kansas
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That's it. I've had enough. I vote for Jason to run for president of the APTA. Brother, you have my vote anyday! There is no way one can argue about DC's and it's dishonest practices, it's all over if you search around. NO other profession has this kind of rebuttal from it's own kind. Jason, you are a PT warrior!
Mark
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Re: DC's - May 17, 2005 3:15:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1205
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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This is ridiculous! None of you have seen through the vile and pernicious efforts of the medical doctors to vilify chiropractic! It is a conspiracy of the MDs with the purse-string-holders: the pharmaceutical industry. They have been threatened for many years by our enormous success in enabling the innate intelligence, or by correcting subluxations (a complex neuro-biomechanical motion disorder, resulting in nerve dysfunction resulting in all kinds of terrible problems..), and have been trying - illegally! - to shut us down! Check out the famous Wilkes decision! It completely supports and promotes chiropractic! (Really - you have to read between the lines!)
Chiropractic has so many detractors because they are jealous of its success - yeah, that's it... jealous! All the statistics about utilisation rates, loan defaults, drop out rates are mean and vicious attempts by a secret lobby to make chiro look bad! Terrible! Chiro does NOT need any help with that!
The previous are paraphrases of real posts by chiros, reproduced tongue-in-cheek!
Chiros are good and bad - as Jason so nicely showed, there eems to be more opportunity for "bad" in that particular field than almost anywhere else. Doesn't make us saints by a long shot. We should continue to strive to the highest standards and ethics in our profession. I am at risk of toppling of this soapbox...
And now for something completely different:
... "this is a dead parrot, it is deceased....it has kicked the bucket...passed away...is no more.....is pushing up daisies".... (John Cleese)
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Mundi vult decipi
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Re: DC's - May 17, 2005 3:28:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
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Seb-
I beg your pardon, that parrot is resting....it's tuckered out..."
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DC's - May 17, 2005 3:49:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1205
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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Yessss.....
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Mundi vult decipi
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Re: DC's - May 17, 2005 9:38:00 AM
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Sominus
Posts: 6
Joined: May 15, 2005
From: League City, TX
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Pinin' for the fjords? This parrot has passed on!
Actually....
I'd like to buy some cheese!
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-Michael in League City
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Re: DC's - May 17, 2005 10:07:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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From: USA
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All Monty Python aside...
Michael, have you a rebut?
And I'm sorry, the cat has eaten the last of the cheese. :)
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DC's - May 17, 2005 5:15:00 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2438
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From: Michigan
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Michael, since you brought up fraud... I tend to think that the PT fraud issues that were discussed are not a reasonable argument when comparing PT and chiropractic. I won't make excuses for therapists that are involved in fraudulent activity, but technically, the fraud tends to occur often with improper use of the CPT codes - the CPT codes define the procedure billed, how the procedure was supervised and who supervised the procedure. Typically it is the last two aspects of the CPT code that tend to either be forgotten or not recognized either by the therapist or the employer or both parties. Generally, the patient did receive services and generally the patient did receive the activity described, just not at the full technical level of the definition. (I say that, although I do know that there are times when patients are billed for visits and the patient never attended therapy.... I honestly don't know how often that happens.) Other times, specifically with Medicare, "fraud" occurs when documentation isn't within the Medicare guidelines. So, technically, weakness of therapists in understanding definitions and documentation guidelines may be an issue, potentially at a high frequency, but that doesn't equate to unsafe practice procedures that could physically harm a patient.
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Re: DC's - May 18, 2005 6:46:00 AM
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Sominus
Posts: 6
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From: League City, TX
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Ok, now that I have time to type once again.
Do I have a rebut? Well, yes and no.
Can I rebut the fact that there are a large number of chiropractors out there who have slimed the image of chiropractic? No. I have to concede that there is basis for people to have written some pretty ****ing arguments (Books, websites, etc.) against the practices mentioned. Unfortunately, due to the number of practitioners seen over time, these slams are seen as against chiropracTIC in general.
What really gets my goat is the (large) amount of info out there that bashes chiropractic that is either contrived, ill-conceived, blown out of proportion, out of context, etc by some people/groups. What also gets my goat is that some of the same issues that are said to be rampant in chiropractic are also rampant in allopathic medicine, yet when this is brought up it is "no applicable". Again, how convenient!
REAL issues are just that: Real. Whether they exist in other professions or not makes them no less real, but to imply that it "doesn't matter" that they apply elsewhere (which was one of my contentions earlier in the thread) is preposterous. Such issues do not make chiropracTIC the problem (as has been more-or-less stated). But to make up statistics (and I will state that my opinion that Bottnick's 16% number is contrived) and then quote them as "bilblical fact" (my term) is doing NOTHING to fix the problem.
Chiropractic is, in one form or another, here to stay. Its long-past time that people accept that. It probably needs to change in some ways -- maybe I'll be able to help with that later in my career. I have my own philosophies on how it fits in to the greater scheme of things, and my own thoughts on how some of the things "should be" addressed. Now, getting 60,000 chiropractors to agree on that is like getting my 4 kids to agree on what should be on a pizza. I'm not trying to address that yet...
So, am I looking to say that the problems do not exist? Nope.. They DO! Am I saying that we need to get rid of the sensationalism surrounding the arguments against chiropractic? Yup.
I'm hoping that, one day if we meet, I'll be one of the chirpracTORs you meet that helps give chiropracTIC a good name, despite any flaws or issues you may have with others in the profession.
-Michael
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-Michael in League City
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Re: DC's - May 18, 2005 11:09:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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From: USA
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Michael,
I hope we can sit down and have a beer next time I'm in Houston.
I do not believe you can change my opinion about ChiropracTIC, as it has been solidified by many verifiable facts, many of which appear in my post above. To date, I have not seen any facts that even approach contradicting them.
I do believe you many well be an ethical and competent ChiropracTOR, in which case I would be glad to know you.
I'll buy the first beer.
However, whether Allen Botnick's number is correct or not, are you disputing that a chiropractic accreditor made that statement about educational quality? That was my point. Botnick's conclusion can be disputed, I do not believe the quote can be.
Though some other professions have some problems, they are really very small in comparison.
I have provided quite a bit of evidence that ChiropracTIC has been and continues to be "demonstrably" more problematic than any other health care profession in terms of the number and degree of such problems.
I have not seen evidence of any rebut to that, other than your statement, which may be true in part, that many people who are anti-chiro have as much energy in their arguments as they do intelligence in their arguments.
The sites and pracitioners I quoted above (to include Sam Homola DC) are extensively referenced in both peer-reviewed research and even in chiropractic publications (!!). I do not believe that any of the information I provided comes from anything but a quality, well-referenced source, even if we disregard Allen Botnick's numbers on the accreditation issue.
You are right, getting lots of people to agree isn't easy. But we're not talking about getting DCs to agree on which techniques to use. There is fundamental disagreement throughout the profession about even the basis, scientific or otherwise, of what chiropractic is! There is no agreement about even the kinds of interventions DCs should be doing and if or how they should be integrated with other professions!
Other professions may have practice variation, but in chiropractic there is PHILOSOPHIC variation at the heart of the practitioners.
Now that goes far beyond a physician giving medication A or B for someones high cholesterol or PTs doing manipulation or mobilization for back pain. Or exercise A or exercise B for knee pain.
Again, I'm really not trying to be harsh, but knowing that there are movements in Chiropratic like OSC (objective straight chiropractic), which totally ignores any medical approach or diagnosis, and focuses on the subluxation, how can you conclude just that "it probably needs to change in some ways"?
When you have practitioners like Joanne Gallagher in Pennsylvania, telling patients to go off their siezure medication so she can undo the subluxations! When that patient dies, and she goes to prison...are these really just "some problems"??
When DCs are dispensing herbs, supplements, and using Applied Kinesiology or the Toftness Radiation detector(which even their colleagues admit are shams) would you classify that as just "some problems"?
I don't think anyone here is arguing that Chiro needs to go away. I think everyone here accepts that it exists.
But we should be able to speak frankly about how different and more fundamental the problems in chiropractic are. To say that Chiropractic is OK b/c other professions have problems also, is to ignore the fundamental issues and problems that exist which have NO PARALLEL in other groups.
I do not allow my feelings about ChiropracTIC to influence my decision about individual DCs until I meet them. And as I said, you may very well be an excellent and ethical practitioner. However, from the preponderance of evidence that currently exists, it is safe to say that you are a good practitioner DESPITE, and not because of, your training.
That is a reflection not of you, but of Chiroprac-TIC.
Thanks for the good discussion, and I'll take you up on that beer if we get a chance.
Jason.
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DC's - May 18, 2005 12:30:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
Joined: May 9, 2005
From: Kansas
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Just found this website. I'm forever done browsing DC's and their non-logic, you could spend your whole lifetime reading about the DC profession. This site seemed to sum it all up.
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/chirop~1.htm
How can you argue any of this?
I agree with Jason, do not judge the TOR but the TIC. I still can't understand why anybody who has the credentials to be a professional (MD/DO, DPT, OD, DDS--etc-) would choose to be a DC after investigation. No other profession compares to the negativity that surrounds the DC--I've searched it for the past week. I have actually wanted to find "bad things" about PT's, but there is hardly anything out there. But then again, we all live in a wild and crazy world.
Mark
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Re: DC's - May 19, 2005 4:02:00 AM
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Sominus
Posts: 6
Joined: May 15, 2005
From: League City, TX
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Why would I choose to be a chiropractor in the face of all of the arguments against it?
I guess you would have had to walk in my shoes...
Set the wayback machine to 1994. My first wife was diagnosed with cancer and given 6 weeks to live. She started chemo since we had 12 month old daughter and she just wanted to live long enough to see her get on the bus that first day in Kindergarten.
6 weeks came and went. The chemo, even though it was devastating in some ways, was extending her life and battling the cancer which, while it started as a breast cancer, had spread directly to her liver without any other lymph or involvement...
I met a "healer" (as he was described to me). He was a DC and an acupuncturist. He offered to see my wife to see if he could help her out a little. He offered no cure for her cancer, no crap about "her innate", nothing about 'subluxations'. He merely offered to make her more comfortable, MAYBE help the chemo do its work a little better by making her less tense due to pain/nausea.
I was simply amazed at the results. Her pain was drasctically reduced to the point where she was able to function and interact with her family and not have to be doped up on narcotics. Her nausea, while still somewhat problematic at times, was under control. The high cost of Zofran at the time was killing us financially, and we were able to now afford to eat again.
He did adjustments on occasion, acupuncture on occasion, offered herbs on occasion for the nausea.
Between his treatment and the chemo, she lived another 27 months. Not long enough to see our daughter get on the bus that first day, but long enough to have been able to see her walk, talk, explore and be a child, and she still smiled up until the day she died.
THAT is what I intend to do -- make people's quality of life better in a way that I have experienced at a level that few (hopefully) ever will have to. Is it 'main strea'? Probably not. But having seen the results in not only my wife, but in others who shared her plight, I cannot deny its ability to heal. I don't know the science behind it (yet). I don't know if I ever will know ALL of it... I'll learn as much as I can and apply it ethically, though -- no huge claims of making your whites whiter or your teeth brighter...
Sorry.. I waxed a little emotional there, but I think you get the point.
-Michael
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-Michael in League City
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Re: DC's - May 19, 2005 4:37:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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[QUOTE]I cannot deny its ability to heal[/QUOTE]Sorry for your loss. I can see why you feel strongly about this issue and this discussion. I'm glad your wife found a good helper, of whatever stripe. I think her experience (and yours) says more about the individual chiropractor who helped with her end of life care, and the therapeutic relationship they had, more than it reflects well on chiropractic as a whole.
I don't think what you've described is argument against any assertions that have been made on this thread. The issues posters here have are to do with chiropractic, not individual chiropractors, as has been mentioned several times.
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Re: DC's - May 19, 2005 5:59:00 AM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
Joined: May 9, 2005
From: Kansas
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That Micheal, is an excellent reason, a personal experience. I wonder how many DC's actually go to DC school b/c of a personal experience such as yourself? God Bless You Brother.
Mark
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Re: DC's - May 19, 2005 6:30:00 AM
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Randy Dixon
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Joined: August 6, 2004
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It is stories like Mike's that make me think, hope, that the two professions PT and chiropractic merge. That those who are working for the best outcomes of their patients will use the best measures available to do it. I think practitioners of both will come to use the best knowledge available, scientifically verifiable and empirical both. I think the practices of both then become very similar and they both have useful things to teach other.
This is going to take a cutting away of a lot of baggage and past for chiropractic and a little for PT too.
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Re: DC's - May 19, 2005 11:13:00 AM
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karmzack
Posts: 181
Joined: March 20, 2005
From: Hawaii
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Randy, the debate of PT and chiros working together was recently debated on a well know chiro forum. Here are some excerpts. My opinion is that the professions will never have a solid symbiotic relationship, but I think in individual circumstances it may work.
[QUOTE] Yeah, there's really not a whole lot DC's can do in most of the hospital. I was envisioning more of an integration within the physical therapy department. Of course, they'd have to get through the PT's to do this. Another idea is that DC's can staff a back clinic in or near the hospital. If the PTs want in, they'll just have to work side by side with the DC's.
[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] ....chiropractors are primary.Physios for example are not.....if we jump into bed with a weaker body of knowledge we pollute and weaken our own standing.....that is a simple fact. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] I must confess that I am surprised that I have been literally mislead by the exagerated claims of ALL of the PT's who have come here to wax lyrical about how much more they offer than anybody else.You know their diagnostic skills,their manipulative skills and recently their radiological expertise...............What I would say is that some chiropractors have the lack of vision to suggest that we incorporate with physio,that is dangerous,destructive thinking and costly....yes a one step guide on how to reduce our own professional standing and slide down the food chain,nice one gentlemen....thankfully there are those of us in the chiropractic profession to put the muzzle on FOOLS.
[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] Working with PT's is not the same as incorporating with them. It would be wise move on the part of the chiropractic profession to develop better relationship with PT's (at least in the U.S.) and work with them. FYI, PT's may not be doing the medical diagnosis but they still do put on the physical therapy diagnosis (or, as some call it, the assessment) on each of their patients. As I have stated before, they recognize the physicians' expertise in that area to clear patients for physical therapy. *Sigh* Why do I feel like I have to defend the PT profession? (Rhetorical question, no need to answer.) The increasing direct access issue for PT's, the transition to the DPT degree, the rise of PT private clinics, increasing utilization of PT, and the decrease in dollars for DC's are all writings on the wall if the chiropractic profession doesn't clean up its act. How is it costly if by working with PTs, the DCs also enjoy the access to the stream of patient referrals from physicians or increased access to academic institutions?
[/QUOTE]
_____________________________
Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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Re: DC's - June 3, 2005 7:13:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
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Resources...
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/chirolinks.html
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi
[URL=http://www.chirobase.org]www.chirobase.org[/URL]
[URL=http://www.chiroweb.com]www.chiroweb.com[/URL]
Take a look around...
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DC's - December 2, 2005 8:57:00 PM
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fitnessdc
Posts: 1
Joined: December 1, 2005
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It looks like people have given up on this thread, and I apologize for getting back into it, but as a DC, new to your site surfing around killing time, a few things caught my attention. A few things about myself. I have been practicing chiropractic and acupuncture for 7 years now, and have a pretty good idea of the pissing contest that is going on between chiropractors and physical therapists, though I believe it to be unfounded. It would be hard to argue with the fact that while our training and skill sets are different as Jason Silvernail points out, what we actually do day in and day out is really not all that different. I cant speak for PTs with the manipulation or mobilization training because I dont know, but I was taught all the PT modalities and rehab in school and I feel that through my training and even moreso, my experience that I am pretty competent in both, though not an expert as I believe you (PTs) to be. I also believe that it is our main objective to get our patients healthy and I dont think anyone can disagree with that. I do adjust the spine, and I am very good at it. The modalities I mainly use in my practice are interferential and ultrasound. In past offices, I have developed rehab programs for my patients, and guided them into doing home exercises. In my current office, I have a PT working for me who does this. I am not too proud to admit that you, as a PT are better trained and qualified than me to do this, and since it is my patient's health that I am most interested in, I leave that to the experts now.
That being said, I do have a slight problem with some of the comments directed at DCs on here that I have read. My practice is mainly NMS based, and that is where the majority of my patients come from. Now, I realize this is probably where I will lose a lot of friends here, but yes, I do want my patients to come to me for the rest of their lives. I do believe strongly that getting adjusted periodically will help a person lead a healthier life. I have read on here that DCs want to adjust patients 3 times a week for the rest of their lives. This statement is ludicrous. I dont know of ANY DCs who adjust or strive to adjust anyone 3 times a week for life. That is plain crazy. My maintenance or wellness patients come in every 6-8 weeks for an adjustment, some times as often as every 4 weeks, but not more regularly than that, provided there are no flare-ups, falls, etc. I dont abuse insurance on these patients either, as they pay cash. I have found that my patients are generally healthier overall, and they generally stay away from the higher pain scales. I dont claim that I cure or prevent them from any disease or disease process. But, I do know they are healthier, and I dont need to read that in a book or a website, I live it and see it everyday in my practice. I dont see how that is a bad thing, and I dont see how you could either.
FLAOrthoPt writes: I have no need for DC. I would never send a pt out to a DC, if their was a condition I really couldn't get better I'd either chalk it up to they cannot be treated or refer out to a FAAOMPT or someone at the real top of the field of PT manual ortho Tx.
This is a huge problem with this individual PT and probably quite a few others of you on here. I read this thread and watched vt2c1ms go from the intitial post of why all the negativity to less than 1 week later state: I still can't understand why anybody who has the credentials to be a professional (MD/DO, DPT, OD, DDS--etc-) would choose to be a DC after investigation. No other profession compares to the negativity that surrounds the DC--I've searched it for the past week. I have no doubt that much of what went into this decision was taken from chirobase and chirotalk which was referenced multiple times on here. And, I am sorry, chirotalk is not an unbiased website that allows for both anti and pro chiropractic viewpoints. And, I'm sorry but people DO get banned for differing viewpoints and not for only ad hominem attacks as they say. I should know, as I was one of those banned and all my pro-chiro posts conveniently deleted. Yes, there is a ton of info out there on the web against chiropractic and why you should not see a chiropractor, etc, and unfortunately THIS is what is forming people's opinions. Then, I read over and over again, that you dont have a problems with individual chiropractors, but you have problems with chiropractic. There are many ethical competent chiropractors, but chiropractic as a whole is full fraudulent money mongers. Well, think about what you are saying. Many of you who have such a problem with chiropractic have had favorable experiences with chiropractors, yet your opinions of chiropractic are still unfavorable. Well, it is the chiropractors that make up chiropractic. Classic example. VT2c1ms also states: How can the goverment let those quacks see patients? Would our government let voo-doo clinicians see patients here in America? NO!
Chiro vs. voo-doo (same ball park according to what I read on those websites). This comment made after reading several websites when the only true experience this person has with chiropractic was that a DC helped their father. A favorable experience, yet a horrible opinion of chiropractic. Why is that?
FLAOrthoPT states: but it seems that some pts like 16 year old who cannot possibly have that severe of spinal problems.
OK, those of you who are PTs. I have given you credit where I believe credit is due, but with your knowledge of the spine, don't any of you have a problem with this statement??? You make the claim PTs should be on equal authority with DCs, but do you really think it's not possible for a 16 year old to have severe spinal problems? There are so many conditions or problems that 16 year old's face. I have read about it and seen it in my practice. Come on, someone set this guy straight. He is in your profession after all and if you want to claim that you know so much about the spine (as I feel you do), someone should step up and address this. Dont you agree?
Some other comments...
tc-I do believe there are some DCs out there who have a good head on their shoulders and believe they are really helping people. I do think one helped my migraines. But, so did acupuncture for a while, too. However, I also strongly believe there are more DCs that are in it for the $$ than the benefit of the patient.
Check out [URL=http://www.quackwatch.com]www.quackwatch.com[/URL] for very interesting info.
Rick-Since then I have been a skeptic and have seen nothing in 13 years of practice to change my mind about the profession as a whole, though I have encountered several individual chiro's who were good people and had good intentions
Jason- One has merely to peruse resources available on the internet to see this.
Look, I still don't think poorly of individual chiropracTORs until I meet and talk with them and decide. I've met some great ones. Maybe you're one of the great ones, too. I don't know.
I have, however, a big problem with chiropracTIC.
Chris Adams- Nicely summed up Jason and I as well as you (and others) have a problem with the -TIC and usually not the -TOR
Diane- I think her experience (and yours) says more about the individual chiropractor who helped with her end of life care, and the therapeutic relationship they had, more than it reflects well on chiropractic as a whole.
The issues posters here have are to do with chiropractic, not individual chiropractors, as has been mentioned several times.
I read so many posts just on this thread that point to good experiences with chiropractors as individuals, yet so many of you have a bad taste for chiropractic. I am not denying that there are problems within my profession, but according to what you all have written you have not experienced them, and your opinions have come from what you have read or from what you have heard. I believe that is the main reason that people have a negative view towards chiropractic. Why do you put more stock in what someone else says about chiropractic than what you have actually experienced with chiropractic. I dont understand this and I hope someone can explain this to me.
I have talked to several PTs who have come through my office. It seems most of them have had a negative opinion of chiropractors prior to working with one. Once they spend some time with us, their opinions changed drastically. When I asked our current PT what her opinion of chiropractic was now, she replied that every office should be a DC/PT clinic. She said that the patients are healthier and why not give them the best of both worlds. Plus, we pay very very well, and that is a good thing for you. The truth is, and this is hard to argue against, you and I are more alike than some of us in the profession would like to admit, as far as practice or how the medical community perceives us. There is not a whole lot that I can do that you cant, and I dont think there is anything that you can do that I cant. I just believe that there are things that each of us can do better than the other. It is just sad to see that the majority of your opinions are anti-chiropractic despite your favorable experiences with us.
Anyhow, sorry to take so much of your time, but this is something near and dear to my heart and I just wanted to share one DCs opinion.
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