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Re: PT salaries
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Re: PT salaries - March 21, 2005 2:33:00 AM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2362
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
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Which begs the question... who is the customer?
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Re: PT salaries - March 21, 2005 2:57:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1697
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
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Randy,
Where does the insurance company get their money from? Last time I checked, I pay them quite a bit and unless you're a heavy user of insurance chances are the money you give them earns more than they pay you or they wouldn't be in buisness. Those poor guys. We really ought to work harder for them.
I agree though that beggars can't be choosers.
jon
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[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: PT salaries - March 21, 2005 3:30:00 AM
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TLB
Posts: 350
Joined: September 13, 2002
From: Arizona
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Why do PT's bill insurance companies for work provided? I'll answer my own question, as a service to the patient, it's certainly not mandatory. If PT's would charge cash payment and hand over the insurance forms to the patient to perform their own reimbursement they might have a whole new understanding of how things work and the quality of their coverage. Of course this won't happen anytime soon in most places because said PT might lose out on some business and it is kind of scary to make that big of a move to a cash base only. If insurance companies are the problem why not let the people who have coverage and who they are providing a service for deal with them?
Todd
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Todd
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Re: PT salaries - March 21, 2005 8:21:00 AM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2362
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From: Michigan
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Todd,
I have always felt the same way. Whomever started the "service" to the patients screwed up. It would work if every PT in a local area did just what you said... the problem is there would always be someone who agrees to go along with the action but doesn't. The key is everyone doing it...
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Re: PT salaries - March 22, 2005 2:56:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
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...and the key may also be in bringing everyone's awareness up about it.
I don't think most people know any difference between insurance companies, but why would they?
They just go to the doctor, and things are covered. What happens behind the scenes is never seen.
This reminds me of my situation at home.
I have this great system with laundry. You see, I put the dirty clothes in the hamper, and a few days later, they magically reappear in my closet, clean and ready to wear. I really don't know what happens behind the scenes, or what needs to happen to have that work.
Upon closer inspection, it appears that my wife (and not a "laundry fairy" as I had previously assumed) actually sorts, washes, dries, folds, and replaces the clothes herself. So, knowing what goes into it matters, especially since it affects me. I have found the more of my own laundry I do, the more time my wife and I have for other things. Some of which are REALLY fun. I actually was more satisfied with the whole process when I saw what was involved, made the cost/benefit comparison myself, and chose to get involved.
I think people would be the same way about their insurance and healthcare. For a little more effort, they would be so much more invested in their own health (to include rehabilitation) that they would be better consumers, and use that money more efficiently. Far better, and decisions are made according to their values of what's important, not an insurance company's values of what's important.
Any time you disconnect the payment from the customer, the situation is rife for abuse and inefficiency. Car repair and insurance is just another example of this same process, and one we can all relate to. But I am proud of my laundry metaphor, also.
Cash practice has a lot to recommend it, and it may be the most practical and fair way to do it. Fee for service is only a problem if the customer is not directly invested in the payment. The third party payer is the issue, in my opinion...
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: PT salaries - March 22, 2005 4:24:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1498
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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I've only just discovered this thread.
Jason, I agree with your entire gist throughout this thread. (And who'da thought you were a secret Canuk-a-phile?). Acually ditto everyone's posts and gists.
I spent many long years working in hospitals and as a poorly paid associate for hummers, so I think I've earned my stripes as a drone. Feels great to be outside the center of those particular vortices of misuse of my talents.
I guess I'm here to say how utterly possible it is to have a good, contented life, work as an honest PT outside of the clutch of insurance companies or co-workers' or employers' expecations, make more than 100K/ year, (133 last year), see no more than 6 patients a day, treat them all to the best of one's abilty and capacity to be a pain detective/ pain buster, (and furthermore enjoy them as human beings!). With only a lowly diploma earned decades ago, and the abilty to read and think and work.
I charge no more than anyone else around me, but offer no gadgetry, no hot packs etc. I offer instead uninterrupted big blocks of my time, energy, mind, and hands (focussed attention), dedicated to helping them work out their issues in their tissues. And they pay.
My practice is solo and in a somewhat economically depressed neighbourhood. It's not how much you make, it's how much you keep and what you have to do to earn it. Chasing down insurers for crumbs was never my idea of a good time and I'm so glad I don't have to do that anymore.
Last point: If I can do it anyone, any PT can. I really mean that. You guys are all way better educated than I was. Hint: Learn to be really effective with your hands. People prefer to pay for good hands on, more than any other quality you may possess. Just keep your hands-on boundaried, quality, and science-based and it's all good.
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Re: PT salaries - March 22, 2005 6:10:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
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That's a great post, Diane.
What a great example of what a market force we can be.
Love that last paragraph on the manual therapy...important point...
What a good example of a quality practice....
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: PT salaries - March 22, 2005 6:57:00 AM
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hmgross
Posts: 289
Joined: February 28, 2003
From: Minnesota
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Hear, Hear, Diane! My feelings exactly. I am in the same situation. One of my PT instructors said years ago that the best pieces of PT equipment are your two hands and what is between your two ears.
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Holly Gross PT
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Re: PT salaries - March 22, 2005 3:32:00 PM
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Synergy
Posts: 589
Joined: March 11, 2004
From: Forney, TX
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Diane, your post was encouraging to say the least. Hopefully, I'll eventually get into an area where I can 'do my own thing' so to speak. I currently belong to a small clinic where "chasing down the crumbs" is pretty important. Maybe, in due time, things will get better.
Diane, Jason was forced by some unforeseen entity to state that he's a Canuck-er. The Dallas Stars is the 'crem dala crem'! :)Diane, what's the scoop with ol' Bertuzzi these days?
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Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: PT salaries - March 22, 2005 3:55:00 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1498
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Glad the post raised some cheer.
[QUOTE]Diane, what's the scoop with ol' Bertuzzi these days?[/QUOTE]Chris, I don't know. Hockey took a long holiday this winter. I think he wiggled himself out of trouble somehow. The guy whose neck he fondled roughly is trying to sue him by another route. Apparently Bertuzzi just never got the message that cervical manips are dangerous, especially when augmented by forward momentum on skates. Fortunately the guy who was assaulted can still walk and talk, although there is some indication he won't be playing hockey again. I never liked hockey much anyway. Oops, did I just admit that?
Back to PT salaries.. To raise them up, start working for yourself solo, and get paid directly by your patients. Much better all round. Way happier patients, less stress, more time to think and treat and ruminate and post.
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Re: PT salaries - March 22, 2005 5:36:00 PM
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Synergy
Posts: 589
Joined: March 11, 2004
From: Forney, TX
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I would love to eventually work for myself, but at this stage in my life, it seems unrealistic. I've also got quite a bit to learn and add to my functional toolbox before I'd ever go it alone.
BTW...living in Canada and not liking hockey? I've never heard such blasphemy exit a Canadian's mouth, or in this case, via keyboard. :)
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Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: PT salaries - March 22, 2005 9:52:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
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Diane,
I've been wanting a marketing/business section on this forum. Why don't you and FLA and any other therapists, maybe the chiro's also, share with us your experience, ideas and routine. I think a lot of therapists would like to practice like you do, but just haven't really been exposed to it as a practical idea. How do you market, bill, do you have staff, do you answer to anybody, overhead, etc.
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Re: PT salaries - March 22, 2005 9:52:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
Status: offline
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oh, and if you do maybe post it on the open forum where everyone will see it.
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