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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr."
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 10, 2005 3:23:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
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From: Kansas
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Drew,
You must really enjoy school with all those letters behind your name, very impressive :) . I must say, you're one of a kind to not go by Dr., many docs could learn from you. My PCP said these words, "going to medical school made me humble, it truly showed me that I don't know squat!". He only addresses what he truly knows and leaves the rest to the ones who know more about the subject (allied health). For the profession to advance, DPT's should say "Hello, I'm Mark, your doctor of physical therapy". You see, MD's will never accept the DPT as Doctors, just like they don't accept OD's as Doctors (unless they get tons of referrals),. So, suck it up and face them. DPT's aren't taking over the medicine/surgery field or the knowledge, they are just advancing the PT profession. It's sad that one of the truest professions are at the mercy of MD's, but what allied health isn't? As for me, I will address myself as Dr. _________, Doctor of Physical Therapy, NOT for my ego, but out of respect for the advancement of the PT professsion and it's future. If you get a Dr. degree, be proud and represent your profession to the fullest. Not addressing oneself as Dr. when you are one, openly shows slef-doubt and submission to your colleagues. As for PT's who aren't DPT's, they should rally behind the DPT's for the PT profession. They should be calling DPT's doctor for the pride of the PT profession. Why wouldn't you won't to advance PT and call a DPT doctor? I can't think of one reason unless it's for self-centered reasons. The thing is, DPT is here for a reason or it wouldn't be here and it should be supported by all who support the PT profession, even MD's. The reasons aren't for reimbursement, etc. It shows that PT has got knowledge that is invaluable to patients and is being recognized by the world, going to the title of Dr. No more. No less.
Mark
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 10, 2005 3:35:00 PM
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ptdan23
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Doc and mt,
Why do you say Dr. Paris/USA is a phony? I have taken all the seminars for the manual therapy certification and have learned a lot and my manual skills have improved tremendously. Just wondering why you say that.
Dan, PT.
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 10, 2005 4:31:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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Mark,
Don't love school so much as wanting to be prepared for anything. My PhD allows for me to do research and teach with respect to qualitative research and healthcare management --- but I'd rather teach clinical coursework, so the DPT and a clinical specialization is pretty much a must if I ever plan to retire into teaching.
Just curious, but do you work with other PT's that are not DPT's, but do have years of clinical experience and/or certifications?
I only ask because as a pediatric therapist whose done my share of teaching on the national lecture circut, I'd still feel a little funny calling myself "Dr." at an NDT course with Lois Bly, PT, MA; or an orthotic course with Billi Cusack, PT.
Now, especially as an outpatient adult therapist, at a wound care course with David Butler, PT; or a manual therapy course with Krista Clark, PT, FAAOMPT, I'd definately feel strange being addressed as "Doctor." On a daily basis, I work with several great therapists at Lake Norman Rehabilitation just North of Charlotte --- none are DPT's. One is a master of sports medicine and used to work for an NFL team, and another did a year long clinical mentorship with Krista Clark --- the latter being one of the most skilled manual therapy clinicians I've ever seen or heard of (although I'm told that Chad Cook, PT, PhD is ungodly with the techniques he brings to the Maitland courses, and the Duke DPT program --- and I suppose I have to give my Wife, Erin Midkiff, DPT a few props too). The point is, while I've a different skill set than the PT's I work with, everyone's got their own little niche --- my PhD and DPT don't make me any better a clinician than anyone else in today's PT climate. My patients get better at the same rate as any of the BSPT's, or MPT's I work with. The difference is the level of evidence-based practice that I bring to the clinic, a pediatric style approach to developmental kinesiology and movement patterns of the adult patient, and an elevated eye toward visceral referal patterns. That's about it, and I didn't need a DPT for that --- it just helped to package it all in a self-contained and less expensive way. What I am, quite simply, is only slightly better prepared for the future of the profession than the average non-DPT. That's all any DPT these days really is.
That, in reality, is the value of the DPT of today --- not to BE the DPT of vision 2020, but to TRAIN the DPT's of vision 2020 and support the vision into reality. We won't be in practice be the time the DPT actually is what's being sold to unsuspecting entry-level DPT students nowadays.
That is our role, and the sooner we realize that, the better or profession will be. Our fight isn't the "we should be called doctors" fight --- it's the "every PT should be trained at a sufficient level to practice in a direct-access way without physician referral way, and WORTHY of the title of doctor" fight, and I don't think we're there yet. That's not a small task either --- but I think too many new grad entry-level and transitional DPT's are putting the cart before the horse with respect to the work ahead of our profession in relation to a fully respected direct access clinical doctoring profession.
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 10, 2005 5:12:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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Drew,
With all due respect, the PT's you're talking about are the PT's I'm talking about. If they truly support the advancement of the PT profession, they would have no problem calling DPT's doctor. Again, I don't think you will find a person (MPT, etc) who has a problem calling a DPT doctor unless it's for self-centered reasons. They should get their tails in a DPT program and show nothing but support for the DPT. If they are as good as you say, they should have no problem doing this. As a matter of fact, they should want to do it for the PT profession and be proud of it.
They should be the ones setting the marker, the leaders of the PT profession. If our own leaders don't support or acknowledge the D in DPT, then how can you expect anyone too? What does that say to our colleagues? DPT's aren't good enough to be called doctors, even by their own profession? What? That again, is pure nonsense. PT's should be the one's with the highest support pushing for the title of Doctor.
I'm the clinical coordinator for an orthoptic therapy program. There are no PT's that work there, but many PT's/OT's/Exercise physiologists come there to understand the importance vision plays with rehabiliation/sports--especially balance. Using yolk prism goggles to manipulate one's perception of the world--etc.
With all due respect, you should not feel "funny" calling yourself a Doctor. You are one. Does an engineer have a problem calling himself an engineer? NO. It's part of representing yourself and your profession. If you, one of PT's leaders, have a problem calling yourself a Doctor then what does that mean to the rest of us? You are a double doctorate, or will be. Perhaps you don't give yourself enough credit on your skills.
It is sad that you feel strange as a doctor in front of other PT's. Not that you are sad, the whole scenario is sad. If they want the title, go and get it. To not address a DPT as doctor is a disservice and disrespect to the profession as a whole, period. Again, why the heck wouldn't you want to, it's your profession, be proud that we are able to finally become doctors.
Again, I want to state that it is not an EGO issue. It is a respect issure for the PT profession and it's advancement.
Kindest Regards,
Mark
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 10, 2005 5:51:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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I was just asking why you said it is "far cheaper". Perhaps I was calculating income vs debt...and that is how I understood you.
Perhaps "value" was my definition...I am not so sure a DPT has the same "value" as other similar doctorates like the PharmD etc. Certainly not like a MD etc. Just didn't understand your statement.
_____________________________
Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 10, 2005 5:55:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
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mark, now I am in agreement with you and everyone really, I have NO opinion on this matter...yet. But take me. Several years into the field, have my OCS, almost have an advanced manual certification...I practice solo on cash basis word of mouth referrals or direct marketing...what does a DPT do for me? It will cost me about 12K to get a t-DPT from my alma mater, and frankly that's 12K I'd rather have to invest in property to make me 60K more in a year or two. So why do I need to get out there and get my DPT? I do agree it is a good trend for our profession in name but not in practice. I feel that I know musculoskeletal injury diff. diag. better than most and better than most ortho surgeons even. But what is important to know is when referral is necessary. Sure, I may not know exactly where an ovarian cyst refers pain to, but I DO know when it is not following a pattern of bone or joint or peripheral nerve, etc, then it is time to refer out. I can do this now without my DPT and so should any other MPT. We may not know that the GI of the left decending colon refers pain to the left groin (who knows) but I do know that vague hip pain that is not reproducable that does not follow any patterns I have been taught, needs further study. So, I can argue either side here..hooray for DPT about time we get some respect, but really what does it do for us but make MD and DO mock us resent us and possibly give false expectations from patients or false confidence of entry level DPT grads?
food for thought
Ben
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 10, 2005 6:08:00 PM
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ptdan23
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The thing that people keep bringing up is what is the DPT doing for use now. I think a question that should be asked instead is what can it do for us? And not only for yourself but for the profession as a whole. I agree with other comments that if we as a profession or not united that why should we be seen as that by others???
Dan, PT.
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 2:59:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Ben, Good post.
Drew, agreed.
Mark-
I know you are new to the PT world and I respect your passion for the profession. But our profession needs to grow alongside other professions, especially medicine, and the title should not be the issue right now. As Drew says, our job here is to set the stage for the future of PT, and demanding the doctor title, while your argument is sound in theory, can be confusing and damaging when put into practice.
Let's focus on our skills and our patients, shall we?
Leave the title aside for now...use Drew's example and follow it when it comes.
If it truly is not an 'EGO' thing, then I'm sure you have no problem putting the title on the back burner, as the advancement of the profession you speak of is measured not in titles, but in respect from our collegues, reimbursement from payers, and access to and quality care for our patients.
Don't you agree?
Wags-
I see what you mean regarding income vs debt. I hadn't considered that.
I still believe the DPT is cheaper than a 4 year med school, to say nothing of residency.
I think the "value" issue is separate...placed in monetary terms, it's value is less than MD or PharmD. But money's not the only value system out there, both myself and my patients sometimes operate on a different grading system, and they find the services I have to offer much more "valuable" for their current problem than the services of their family practice physician.
I think for their case of strep throat, the value system for those providers changes again.
So I guess it's a point of view issue...
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 5:41:00 AM
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vt2c1ms
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Yes, I can put the EGO aside very easily when it comes to Dr.( I personally don't care about being called Dr., I go by Master MarK :) ). I'm just throwing my two cents in that from the "outside looking in", it seems that older PT's don't want to support or call new DPT's doctor because they are not one. It's not a skills debate between MPT and DPT, it's a supportive issue.
FLAOrhtoPT, if you don't feel the DPT is going to help you at this time (which is fine), you should still be extremely supportive of the DPT and acknowledge the DPT's as doctors (whether recent graduates or not), then when you decide the time is right for your DPT, the same will be done to you. After all, shouldn't those pioneer PT's be extremely happy that because of their fine work and treatment skills, we (the next generation) are advancing thanks to them.
About the MD/DO issue, they will never support us, never. It doesn't matter if the DPT was longer than MD school, they still won't support PT's as doctors. They don't support anything it seems but pharmaceuticuls and themselves. Our education is different from theirs, but they still want to think they're the best and have complete control over healthcare. Will DPT's make money for them? NO! So, why would you support us especially when they have PM & R docs. They have been fighting us since day 1 and will never quit. We can't live out our PT careers in fear of MD/DO's all the time. You would think they would realize that PT's could very easily become MD's/DO's, it's just a matter of interest. I have no interest in meds/surgery, I have no interest in living that lifestyle--high divorce rates, etc. Are MD's/DO's smarter than the rest of the world? NO! They just like school better than the rest of the world. Some of the smartest people in the world can't stand school. School or your education degrees is just one measurement of intelligence. Their are multiple levels of intelligence.
With all these court battles (PT's in physician's offices, PT's with direct access), there will always be a war. It's just sad that America's health care system can't put their titles aside, and do what's in the best interest of the patient. Ego's get in the way of truly caring for people.
I have learned that, and will not subject myself to the high ego that most MD/DO's have. After all, when everything is said and done, and they face the Maker, their titles do not go with them.
Master Mark ( apprentice of Master Yoda )
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 7:32:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Mark-
I understand your point of view, and I do not believe you are too far wrong on your assessment of the state of the medical care industry in the US.
However, I think you will find a big difference between the actions of the professional associations of our colleagues in Medicine, and the actions of individual Medical Doctors.
I feel quite well supported professionally by my colleagues in medicine where I work, and I would hope they know I support them.
It is only through this mutual respect at an individual level (that Drew noted before) will this profession's evolution take place. Person by person.
I do not believe we will win supporters or respect (of other providers or patients) if we see our profession as at war with or in conflict with another.
Your passion against the medical doctor's perceived predjudice may be partially correct, but it is a gross oversimplification of a complex profession which has many members, some good some bad. (just like ours)
Reading your post, I am reminded of Shakespeare: "Thou doth protest too much, methinks."
You seem to be confusing the concept of supporting our profession with the act of using the title "Doctor" with other PTs who have earned such. I do not believe anyone here has stated that they would not call someone with a doctoral degree that, out of courtesy -- whether they are a PharmD, MD, DC, DPT, or DPM.
Surf on over to some Chiropractic sites and read/listen to them complaining about medical physicians. It sounds a lot like what you said. Is this a group you want to be associated with?
Sit back, and get some PT school under your belt, and some clinical experience in the PT world. I am sure your professors will have a lot of discussions about professional relations and team-based medical care, and that should help you get a fix on how you want to personally approach this issue. Especially when combined with your existing perspective and experience, you may feel less strongly about this in the future. About the use of the title, I mean.
The healthcare environment is changing, and there are many issues ongoing now and in the coming 20 years there will be more.
What part PT plays may well hinge on the actions of the first generation of DPTs, so let's be cautious here and make sure we are making the right choices for our patients and our profession.
Thanks.
J
ps tell Yoda thanks, and sorry I dropped out of the academy :)
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 7:52:00 AM
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vt2c1ms
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Certainly I understand what you are saying. Being that the MD's do rule the healthcare system, we must get along with them and go with the flow or else we will do more harm than good. Perhaps I will learn more as I get more experience. I just know from the OD (optometry) side of the world, they call themselves doctors but MD's don't agree with that. Thanks for the input Jason.
Kindest Regards,
Mark
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 9:04:00 AM
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Shill
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SJ, Randy, Dr. Wagner,
Im with you all on this one too. I think there are a lot of PTs who feel the same way, for the same reasons. I doubt highly that many of them are willing to voice their opinion. The "D" is not the panacea for our insecurity amongst other health care professionals that we all seek. 20 years from now, there will be vision 2040, where all PTs are DDPTD's. Doctor Doctor Physical Therapist Doctors. We will just keep adding letters, hoping that eventually there will be universal acceptance that we are smart. Smart at what? Finding 50 different ways to treat non-specific lowback pain?
_____________________________
Steve Hill PT
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 10:19:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Steve-
I'm not sure if insecurity is the problem as much as the desire to have autonomy.
It's sad that there seems to be a need in our system (legislatures/reimbursement sources) to have the "D" word to get that. Otherwise more established providers who already have that will run roughshod over you. (seen the news lately?)
Don't be disappointed at PTs who want to go the DPT route, be disappointed in a system that would require that in order to get out from under the heel of other providers and become independent.
In other words, don't hate the player, hate the game.
I assume your last statement implies the variation we currently see in clinical practice? Are you under the impression that this is not a problem in other fields? The medical world as a whole struggles with this, let me assure you. The literature is full of examples of this, and EBM is as difficult to accept for physicians as it is for therapists.
While the route to professional autonomy seems to require the "D", the route to clinical acceptance, efficacy and respect continues to be high quality research, practice, and education. We do this as well or better than any other healthcare profession.
I remain proud to be a PT, regardless of what letters I have.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 12:11:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
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Jason-
The comment Shill made about the vision of 2040 being DDPT is exactly my point. Downplaying DPT and not respecting the profession and advancement of DPT. There should no negatives with the DPT, just positives. The DPT is here and you either jump on the positive wagon, or jump out on the negative trail on which it rides. No disrespect to Shill either. Just an example from this forum.
Kindest Regards,
Mark
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 12:55:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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Mark,
I think I get what you're really trying to say. I think Jan Richardson, PT, PhD, OCS --- former APTA president and current director of the Duke DPT program put it best when she said, "Won't it be a shame if in 10 years all physical therapists are DPT's, but no one calls physical therapists doctor?"
I couldn't agree more with that comment, but in order to realize that vision, we must earn it --- not ram it down the throats of the public and down the throats of other health-care professionals. Take a lesson from DC's in that regard.
My father, by the way, used to run Wilmer Eye Institute at Hopkins. You're right that there has been bad blood for years between OD's an Opthamologists --- until the MD's realized that they could use the OD's to do the diagnostic screening, pre-op and post-op care for their surgical cases. The end result was a model of care that kept the OD's doing what they loved (portal of entry care), and the MD's doing what they loved (surgical intervention). Every additional surgery meant more $$$ for the practice, so it worked as money makes for strange bedfellows. And so it will be with DPT's and orthopods, neurologists, etc. I agree with the APTA's stand against POPTS as it creates an unlevel playing field for the independent practitioner --- but on some level, it's a stand that violates the future vision for the profession.
Now that's not how DPT's in POPTS are currently being used --- but it could be a future model could work.
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 1:41:00 PM
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Jon Newman
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From: Amherst, WI
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If we currently had direct access as we envision it (i.e. reimbursed without MD referral) does anyone think the DPT would exist? If so for what reason(s)?
I can't think why it would be a shame if all PT's were DPT's and weren't called doctors can you? I mean presumably we would otherwise be called physical therapists which, at least to me, is more descriptive of what I do. I like when chiropractors are called chiropractors and professors, professors and MD's and their equilvalents, doctors. I may be a bit old fashioned but it seems clearer who and what we're talking about when we speak that way. Names are nice too but not very descriptive.
For those who are worried about calling themselves doctor, I refer you back to my "On Schopenhauer" link on page 3.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 2:05:00 PM
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Dr Simon Bacaltos
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Now lets put this whole argument in a historical perspective, if the art and science of physical therapy traces itself back thousands of years in the past, when the ancients were using heliotherapy, hydrotherapy, massage therapy, kinesiotherapy etc. to treat diseases and injuries. How come that by todays standards the PT's who are the practitioners and legitimate heirs of that most ancient forms of physical therapies but now refined and perfected, be made to feel inferior and can't even be called doctors in their own right?
My point is not even to argue anymore as to whether PTs have that right, but whether PT's themselves and society remembers that in our distant past we we're the only doctors --> practitoners of that ancient arts, rivived in the early 20th century by our repected pioneers in likes of Ms. Mary McMillan, Sister Kenny, etc.
The past should be our beacon in this times of uncertainty and unknowable future.
Hey Wagner, if you find my opinion about my profession and osteopathy retarded, why don't you go back to school for your DPT, then I'll be more impress with your DO. Lets me honest, those who can't make it to MD schools go to DO schools I hear.
Simon Bacaltos, PT, DPT, MS
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 3:29:00 PM
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KAK
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I see that maturity comes with the “Dr.” title in any discipline. ;)
I agree with Jon, that it would be a mute issue if we already had direct access. I thought I understood that the APTA’s vision was to equip the profession for this responsibility. Regardless, I think it is wonderful that the next generation of PT’s will be better educated and better equipped to carry out research. I see it as only a plus for the profession.
I find the question “should PT’s be called Dr?” irrelevant. Will “the vision” enhance treatment of the patients we serve? This to me is the only important question. I believe the focus is off course if we are worried about being called Dr. or not!
If we as a profession are better trained to serve our patients with quality care- filled with thoughtfulness (for Barrett) and EBM (for Jason), we will earn respect. Demanding a title or slamming other professions does nothing to further our goals.
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 4:30:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
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I'm in complete agreement with KAK. Will the DPT enhance patient care? Yes, absolutely with no doubt. Name one way that it can't--- More knowledge = Better Care. However, we are not fighting for Dr. title rights, we are discussing it ( after all, this is a forum with a title, "Should DPT's be called Dr.?").
Dr. Bacaltos, take it easy on Dr. Wagner. He helps people everyday as you do ( just in a different way) and you should respect that no matter what his title is. Both of you deserve the title of Doctor. I will say he is VERY defensive about his DO against other professions after reading through his forum posts. There is no comparison between DO and DPT------they are completely two different subjects ( like arguing math vs. history ). It's just a matter of what the person is interested in. Most people, if they try hard enough and set goals, can become anything they want. Just b/c schooling is longer or harder doesn't mean they are better than anybody else or should treat people with disrespect, especially in healthcare where you help people.
Jon, do I think if MPT's had direct access would we need the title of Dr.? Yes, b/c it represents the body of knowledge of PT possesses---a Doctor of Physical Therapy. You must, and I mean must, look at other professions with the title of Doctor. Does PT possess that much knowledge in their profession as other doctorate level programs? Absolutely, just different substance. The body of Knowledge is what the D in DPT represents. Every year, PT grows and gets better research and gets more knowledge, and that knowledge should be reflected as a doctorate title. Plain and simple. Will you better serve your patients and your profession if you become a DPT? YES. Name one way you wouldn't. Be careful, to answer this question no should be a well thought out process.
The problem is, as with most things in life, is that people try to make everything so complex ( small picture ), when it should be simple (big picture).
Mark
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - May 11, 2005 5:23:00 PM
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Jon Newman
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So Mark,
Are you suggesting that when you finally graduate that I would be better served going to you than Shill, Diane, Sebastian, Barrett, Duffy, Jason, etc? Are they performing substandard care and ruining the profession?
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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