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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr."
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 13, 2007 5:13:00 PM
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james097
Posts: 178
Joined: January 27, 2005
From: West Vancouver BC
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Jon, This wee shrivelled up Scottish lady with the Glasgow accent was hardly a doctor. It seems that she bought her qualifications, a Phd, from some diploma mill in America. I watched her TV show a couple of times. Both episodes were of English couples who weighed in at about 300 pounds each with children to match. Their eating habits were changed from increadibly high fat diets of gargantuan proportions to eating mainly fruits vegetables and nuts, plus exercising. With the cutting out of the daily ten pints of beer, bottles of wine and many soda drinks, of course the results were almost miraculous. After a few months the participants were almost unrecognizable from their former fat selves. Whether they kept to the new regimes or fell off the wagon we don't know. No follow up was mentioned.
Jim McGregor
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 16, 2007 2:08:00 PM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
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I for one support the APTA vision for DPT. I've said privately many times before many PT's I know, whether or not they are BScPT or MScPT are great therapists and were amazingly competent and good diagnosticians in NMSK.
I know there is some resentment towards DC as the profession, IMO has more quacks than PT's, but the DPT should really force chiro, and I'm looking at the US here, to clean up it's act or be rendered irrelevant. Although I doubt that will happen in Canada as the more recent grads who graduated from a non-subluxation and evidence-based paradigm, unlike 85% of my American counterparts, I get frustrated by how the past generation of DC has all the political control right now and are still holding onto the 19th century concept of Vertebral Subluxation Complex. It's only a **** word, why can't they use Vertebral Joint Dysfunction? Oh well, in time, at least DC's from my generation will be in control of the provincial association and regulatory college. Maybe we start a putsch right now ;) Wait, I think I hear sirens and someone knocking at my door...
Some DC's such as myself would like to see a new profession emerge, a doctor of manual therapy. Like I've mentioned previously, now that PTs are doing "chiropractic" or manipulating and now that chiropractors are increasingly focusing of STM, whether or not its ART/MRT IASTM, some would be hard pressed to differentiate what a "chiropractic" treatment and and a "physical therapy" treatment is if they both do manual therapy (soft tissue and/or manipulation) in addition to exercise rehab and healthy lifestyle choices/education.
I think many of you would be surprised at my curriculum
http://cmcc.ca/PDF/2006/CMCC_Calendar06to07.pdf
(pages 82 onwards for the entire DC Degree curiculum)
Notice the functional recovery and active therapeutics courses being taught years 1-3 in addition to the medical sciences. I don't see why more manual based PT's and the DC Degree Programmes like CMCC's can't find some common ground and create a new profession in the future.
In terms of who should be called doctors, IMO anyone who has done 8 years of university (public or private) should not be embarassed to be called doctor although it should be differentiated from "physician". Dentists, optometrists, chiros, physio, physicians should are all legally to call themselves "Dr" although your specialization should be highlited as to not confuse the public.
Anywho that's my 2c hope everyone has a great weekend, back to the hockey game... (typical Canadian, eh!)
Cheers
Marc.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 17, 2007 1:08:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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Marc-
I'd like to point you to THIS site, and BE SURE to join the discussion group!
http://www.spinedocsonline.com/
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 17, 2007 1:12:00 AM
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nick jaylor
Posts: 16
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Marc, why did you enroll in DC school?
Nick
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 18, 2007 6:19:00 AM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
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Nick,
My first experience with a DC was a good one. I had a weight training injury to my shoulder, and during my undergrad I was referred to this "amazing" DC. He was a relatively a new grad since he was within 5-8 years of me, had done his Kinesiology degree as well, and did something at the time called Active Release Techniques which you may well know is the so called Gold Standard in STM. I got some exercises as well and I was hooked. Unfortunately for me I had an ankle sprain at 18 and saw PT who pretty much just used ultra sound and was IMO provided me with a very basic rehab programme. She was a little older however. So, my first impressions of the professions were skewed.
Going to an American DC school was never in the cards for me, primarily because I didn't want to go/live in the States, our Cdn dollar was at 62.5c in 2001-02 and because I researched the DC schools and CMCC was by far the best one in terms of education and research. For example, 90% of the first year class has a GPA of 3.3-3.5 and has an undergrad degree or at least 3 years of one. A lot of the American DC schools will let simpletons in, even amoeba, if they can afford it. I'm not trying to be a jerk here about that, but facts are facts. I can provide references to anyone who disputes this. Another thing which led me towards DC was that the scope was larger than PT and at the time DC in Ontario was apparently supposed to grow in scope in terms of being able to directly refer for bloodwork and imaging.
Unfortunately, I discovered that there was a huge rift between DC's and that there really are 2 types of DC's under the same banner which taints NMSK practitioners like myself. Throw in the fact that the subluxation (high volume) docs pretty much run the show here in Ontario (many Canadians who don't get into CMCC or UQTR go South and come back here and dilute the pool. This is despite the fact they routinely fail our national board exams, but after spending 100-120k, they'll write it as often as they have to since they've invested a lot of $$.
Check out the stats re: what schools tend to do well in Canadian board.
http://www.cceb.ca/english/exam/written/Overall%20Pass%20Rate%20by%20College%20of%20Graduation.pdf
The bottom of the barrel are the straight/subluxation schools. They are terrible and should be closed.
Bottom line: IMO I had a great edu, but the politics and divisions of DC and the fact that the title is generally scorned upon, the huge difference between Cdn and American DC schools and the emergence of a more manual based (D)PT is giving me pause for the long term viability of the chiro profession or more specifically, the title DC.
Even in private circles, it is rumored that the leadership at CMCC think that within 20 years there is going to be a formal divorce from the NMSK wing or chiro from the subluxation wing unless reform happens at a quicker pace. It's easier to change things here in Cdn just because we have 2 schools are about 5000-6000 DC's and every grad now from Canadian schools are indoctrinated/educated under an EBM NMSK paradigm.
This in contrast to the US situation where change is a lot slower and more difficult with more fractions and divisions and you can see why Canadian trained DC's of my generation are getting a pissed since they are ruining (more?) our reputation by not practicing EBM and rejecting dogmatic practices.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 18, 2007 6:52:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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Marc-
I'd like to point you to THIS site, and BE SURE to join the discussion group!
http://www.spinedocsonline.com/
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 18, 2007 7:12:00 AM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
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Jeep,
Will do... Looking forward to seeing what it's all about.
Cheers,
M.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 18, 2007 7:35:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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Marc-
Looking forward to your reply.
You have been the recipient of some very flawed information. There is no need for you to be an apologist.
You will find this site to be more accurately representative of the reality of the DC profession, and I am certain you will find it, very much, akin to your aspirations.
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 22, 2007 11:49:00 AM
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allenbr4
Posts: 12
Joined: February 14, 2007
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Jeep,
"You have been the recipient of some very flawed information."--What did you mean by that?
It sounds like Marc is happy with his education at CMCC, despite the current division and politics in chiropractic.
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 23, 2007 11:02:00 AM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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Jeep,
I'm curious as to what my flawed information was... I visited the website you provided and I don't see how that has changed my opinion. That is to say, that the overwhelming majority of US DC schools teach a dogmatic view of chiropractic that continues to perpetuate the subluxation myth (nerve interference not a hypomobile joint) while not emphasizing critical thinking skills and using an EBM framework to help guide decision making. That's not to say that graduates from these types of programs can't "repent" (since they are practically religious in their claims and approach to health care) but I would definitely argue that patients are literally in much safer hands from someone who to UQTR, CMCC, National and other schools that are heavy on sciences and light on philosophy.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 24, 2007 12:34:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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[QUOTE]I'm curious as to what my flawed information was...
[/QUOTE]I have witnessed your posts on various forums that promote flawed information, and flawed interpretation of flawed information. And I have also witnessed you post flawed information. So, I pointed you to a website, and discussion forum that would be informative, accurate, and enlightening for you. My objective being, you would find yourself amongst like minded EB/academic/critical thinking DC collegues. Have you joined the forum? What on the website I directed you to, did you find contrary?
[QUOTE] Although I doubt that will happen in Canada as the more recent grads who graduated from a non-subluxation and evidence-based paradigm, unlike 85% of my American counterparts, I get frustrated by how the past generation of DC has all the political control right now and are still holding onto the 19th century concept of Vertebral Subluxation Complex. [/QUOTE]Please provide a reference to support this declaration.
[QUOTE] You're right; it does seem like most US chiro schools go to great lengths to stay out of mainstream health care
[/QUOTE]HUH? Please provide documentation for this assertion.
[QUOTE] This stuff is much more prevalent than I even thought, and there was a paper in Chiropractic and Osteopathy which specifically addresses this issue.[/QUOTE]Ironic that you shoud point to this journal-------Dr. Wyatt(whose website I directed you to), is an editor for this journal!
[QUOTE] I visited the website you provided and I don't see how that has changed my opinion. [/QUOTE]And what on that website is different than what you proclaim?
[QUOTE] That is to say, that the overwhelming majority of US DC schools teach a dogmatic view of chiropractic that continues to perpetuate the subluxation myth (nerve interference not a hypomobile joint) while not emphasizing critical thinking skills and using an EBM framework to help guide decision making.[/QUOTE]Please provide a reference to support this declaration
[QUOTE] That's not to say that graduates from these types of programs can't "repent" (since they are practically religious in their claims and approach to health care)[/QUOTE]This statement is A perfect example of the flawed information you have been given, and regurgitate, and as a result, feel a need to be an apologist. IMO, you will discover that you are not in the minority at all!, and will absolutely be engrossed by the intellectual discourse of the discussion group, which, btw, includes some of the most academic, renown, and published, in the profession. Names you should recognize---- Liebenson, Wyatt, Perle, Murphy, and yes, even D'Astolfo(from Canada).
[QUOTE] but I would definitely argue that patients are literally in much safer hands from someone who to UQTR, CMCC, National and other schools that are heavy on sciences and light on philosophy.[/QUOTE]I would encourage you to join the discussion group I posted to you and discuss/explore it there. I know you will find the mainstream DCs(US, Canadian, Euopean, Austrlian) is aligned with your position, and will enjoy the topics and discussion there amongst your collegues.
Let's keep in mind: This is a PT forum, so further elaboration on this, is not appropriate here. I look forward to your posts on the spinedocs forum. You will find VERY good company there!
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RE: Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - November 3, 2007 11:58:25 AM
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BillW
Posts: 10
Joined: May 8, 2006
From: Frankfort, Illinois
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The general public understands "Dr." to mean a certain thing, so when they hear it, that is what they think of. We, as PT's, are not medical Dr's. Because of this, I do not think we should try to sound like one. Chiropractors have somewhat successfully fooled the public, but I believe our integrity prevents us from misrepresenting ourselves to the general public in the same manner. Also, many of the best PT's out there have bachelor degrees, and have taken many more courses than necessary to have a DPT, but their has never been one available. How do you call an entry level PT with no where near the same knowledge Dr, when these people would not get the same recognition. I do not believe our profession should be calling each other Dr. It raises too many problems.
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RE: Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - November 11, 2007 9:33:37 PM
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Robert Capri, PT, MPT, OCS,STC
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i Concur
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RE: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 1, 2008 12:34:45 PM
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user3113
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As a soon to be physician, I think that anyone who completes a doctoral program has definitely earned the title. But I think for DPTs to refer to themselves as "doctor", especially to patients is not only confusing but ambigious. Physicians, who are always refered to as "doctor" complete 4 years of medical school and at least 3 years of residency training before being able to practice on their own. Physicians have earned the right, if you will, to be called doctor. Does that mean that I think that all other health care professionals who have completed a doctorate degree should be called doctor, no. I think this is confusing and overwhelming to patients. When they refer to you as doctor they expect that you should be able to take care of thier medical problems, not provide rebab.
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RE: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 1, 2008 2:42:29 PM
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T_Thom
Posts: 59
Joined: December 25, 2007
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Suggestions for Dr. Martin Luther King? Dr. Stephen Hawking? They are publicly referred to by earned title. Not MD/DO.
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RE: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 1, 2008 5:04:34 PM
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Crevidence
Posts: 138
Joined: November 16, 2007
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I believe doctor stands for teacher or scholar. Aren't academics (PhD's) the real doctor's then? I believe physicians originally adopted the title doctor from these very respected and prestigious folks. If physicians use the title why can't other doctoring professions do so?
As long as you are operating in your scope of practice, I see no logical reason not to allow those with a clinical doctorate the ability to call himself or herself doctor. Is it really that confusing? After all it was probably just as confusing when those in a less respected/prestigious vocation such as "healing" started calling themselves doctors.
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RE: Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 1, 2008 6:41:51 PM
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kiwi PT
Posts: 59
Joined: December 2, 2007
From: MI, USA (dreaming of New Zealand)
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Crevidence,
Is PT a "doctoring profession"? What does this mean? I've always been confused by this language. Is "doctoring" about skill set, knowledge, ...caring? Do non doctorate PTs "doctor" (used as a verb), do dieticians, do nurses?
Kyle
_____________________________
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
Mark Twain
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RE: Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 1, 2008 7:12:09 PM
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Crevidence
Posts: 138
Joined: November 16, 2007
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My definition is, a profession consisting of those who attain doctoral degrees (to practice). This is vague and simple. I really don't have any depth to add to the language unfortunately.
We all don't have them in PT yet so maybe it should have read: " If physicians use the title why can't those with doctoral degrees do so?" Sorry no help.
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RE: Re: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 1, 2008 7:51:54 PM
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jlharris
Posts: 465
Joined: April 12, 2006
From: Nebraska
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quote:
When they refer to you as doctor they expect that you should be able to take care of thier medical problems, not provide rebab.
LOL, and you don't think we are taking care of "medical problems"? I work with the effects of DM, trauma, COPD, MS, osteoporosis... do I need to go on?
MD's treat the same with tests and medications. We treat with education, hands on training/retraining, exercise, etc. Just because we don't cut or irradiate, doesn't mean we aren't treating "medical problems".
Good luck with you carrer in radiology or anesthesiology.
_____________________________
Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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RE: Should PTs be called "Dr." - February 1, 2008 7:53:15 PM
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TexasOrtho
Posts: 338
Joined: December 22, 2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: T_Thom
Suggestions for Dr. Martin Luther King? Dr. Stephen Hawking? They are publicly referred to by earned title. Not MD/DO.
There is a difference here. Drs. King and Hawking wouldn't wander up to the scene of an accident (figuratively speaking of course) and announce that they are a doctor. Yet we refer to them as doctors. Can you appreciate the differences here? We posess doctoral degrees but are NOT DOCTORS inasmuch as the public perceives the term. This situation is analagous to the DC degree...they are also NOT DOCTORS.
Go to medical school followed by 3-5 years of residency in a chosen specialty working 80 hours a week for $40K per year. You will then have earned the right to be called "doctor" in a hospital or other clinical setting.
Until then, we need to cool our egos on this issue and understand you don't have to be a doctor to be important.
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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