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WHY? - December 23, 1999 7:35:00 AM
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soon2bpt
Posts: 5
Joined: September 19, 1999
From: Winchester,VA 22601
Status: offline
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If the future of PT is so bad and irreversible then why are we pursuing or trying to pursue this as a career. I understand that we want to "help people", but why all the effort, time and money spent to be knowledgeable in a field that has no future and may be basically eliminated all together. Yea I want to help people as much as the next person but I would also like to be in a position that there is a demand for and get paid at it to atleast pay the bills I have accumulated to become a PT. It is depressing that I am currently stopping my life to struggle and get a Master's in a field that can only be applied to a "dead-end job". It is sad to say that getting a Master's in Agriculture and Farming is just as big of a waste as a Master's in Physical Therapy is. But is it too late to turn around? What can I do now?
I am sorry to be so pessimistic, but I am just upset that I thought I was going into a challenging and difficult program to be in a well-respected career and then read the Future of PT forum. Thanks for reading [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]
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Re: WHY? - December 23, 1999 1:25:00 PM
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Dana D
Posts: 142
Joined: September 18, 1999
Status: offline
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I hear you loud and clear.... When I was in college, a year ago, I was somewhat discouraged about the future of PT. I ignored it, and kept trucking... finished school...Yeah, It was tough to find a job, but it seems that over the past few months, I've been getting calls for jobs I sent resumes to last January. Honestly, it was tough for me, being in the suburbs of NYC, but a lot of my friends in upstate new york, had very little trouble finding a job.
One of the keys I felt, was being licensed. I found it difficult to find an employer who was willing to interview me, let alone hire me, with only a temporary license. It's more for the employer to worry about... providing you with supervision and such... also, you can't do home care on a temporary license...
Luckily, I passed my boards and was hired in the same week, so it all worked out. But my suggestion is to definitly send out resumes like crazy, but definitly don't procrastinate and take your boards as soon as you feel ready.
As for salary, yeah, it is much less than I heard of as a freshman in college. They made it out to us, that all we would have to do is say "i'm a PT" and WHAM, 80,000/yr! No way Ray! not now....
But as with anything, there are certain trends now, certain ways to make your money, it's just a bit harder. I have a full time job working in pediatrics, but I started doing a weekend rotation with 2 friends at a subacute setting... (and honestly, that's where the nice hourly rate is)... Also, doing private work/home care brings in some extra money.
It's hard to say that money isn't important, because it is, especially after having those student loans!!
But in all honesty, the personal reward I get, I can't beat! I love waking up and going to work, and that is very important.
Don't stress... Finish your PT degree...
And remember, it's a start... No one says you have to be a PT forever!
Good Luck!
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Re: WHY? - December 23, 1999 4:57:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball, MS, PT
Posts: 500
Joined: October 8, 1999
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline
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I'd have to agree with Dana. Physical therapy is for me at least, a very rewarding profession. Stick it out. The process is it's own reward. The following is a paraphrase, but As Dr. Ben Carson (the neurologist who separates siamese twins joined at the head), and Dr. Steven Kopits (the world renowned orthopedic surgeon who works on kids with dwarfism disorders) said to me over a farewell lunch before I left home a for my first year of physical therapy school at 18 years of age, "Be effective. Be a savior to you patients, they deserve nothing less. Don't worry about the money, it should be the excrement of your professional being, not the focus of it. With this philosophy and attitude, it should be a non-issue. It will come whether you want it to or not." For those of you wondering, I had the soup . . .
There is another lesson to be learned here, It's not what you know, but who. Had my father not been the administrator of the hospital at the time, I would not have spent that summer observing them in the operating room. I wish I had fully realized this then. At the time, to me they were just two extrodinary creative surgeons who were kind enough to let me watch as they preformed surgical miracles that must have awed God himself. Use whatever contacts you may have to gain access to unique experiences . . . and put them on your CV.
My students ask similar questions to yours, and my response has always been to treat your entry-level degree like a BS in psych and figure out how to differentiate yourself from your peers.
Several who are now doing outpatient ortho found that a paralegal certificate, which takes about 6 months to complete, came in very handy when trying to break into the PT market. Not only do they now feel secure that they have something else to fall back on, they found that the clinics specializing in accident/injury type of problems could not sign them quick enough. From what I understand, the referrals to the clinic have increased due to community lawyers enjoying the ability to talk with a therapist who speaks "legaleese".
A few who are now doing peds got into the field on the basis of completion of a Maternal and Child Health sponsored clinical trainingship or full year fellowship in developmental disability. . . completed in the interim period while looking for a job. Fellowships don't pay much, but you can live better on a stipend than on no salary at all.
Others have been snatched up by school systems because they enrolled in an M.Ed. program in special education.
As an MBA/PhD student, I'm a big fan of education . . . but the reality is that once you've got the job, once you've proven yourself as a clinician, you don't HAVE to continue with school if you don't want to.
As for me, I moved into an area of practice that few PT's know about, that has been researched to be far more effective (about 70% more, than NDT or PNF for gait training). I survive by staying about 3 years ahead of the crowd.
I'm sure there are other ideas, but the future is not nearly as bleak as some would have you believe. You just have to be creative.
Food for thought,
Drew
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Andrew M. Ball, MS, PT
MBA/PhD Candidate
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball, MS, PT (edited December 23, 1999).]
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Re: WHY? - December 28, 1999 10:56:00 AM
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charanderson
Posts: 25
Joined: December 27, 1999
From: Newbury Park, Ca, U.S.A.
Status: offline
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I really appreciate a forum like this where a person can feel comfortable enough to express their realistic frustrations. I didn't go into P.T. for the money or prestige 15 years ago. It was icing on the cake. Fortunately, the prestige is still there. Most people outside our profession are not aware of the challenges. Unfortunately, the money is no longer there. In my "job" (which I do two days a week) I make about nine dollars an hour less than I did a few years ago, without benefits now! Now you may be imagining that I am about to suggest you discontinue your quest for a P.T. degree. On the contrary, I recommend completing it with maximum force. Why? Because it is an excellent starting point! One day a week (for 4 hours) I do consultation for a Special Education school. A parent group funds my services. I get paid more for this service than I do for the other two days combined. I also see a client in the area right afterwards for additional income. I also have an Internet and preventative health business that I do from home also. My P.T. degree adds to my credibility.
Once you graduate my advice is this: Own your Name, license, skills and Career. Always market yourself as a profession entity even while a novice staff employee. Make sure your performance as a P.T. and professional, in general, is exceptional. Always keep an eye open for an untapped market or opportunity. And be willing to shift gears or directions when necessary. Because making money is important to achieving the quality of life we want! Good luck and I hope this is helpful.
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Charlene K. Anderson, P.T. [URL=http://www.smarttiming.com]http://www.smarttiming.com[/URL]
[This message has been edited by charanderson (edited March 15, 2000).]
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Re: WHY? - December 29, 1999 4:24:00 AM
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gerry
Posts: 238
Joined: July 6, 1999
From: Montgomery, AL, USA
Status: offline
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I appreciated Charlene's comments. I think if you concentrate on improving your skills, developing your own special interests, and fostering positive relationships with those around you, opportunities will present themselves to you.
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Re: WHY? - December 29, 1999 7:19:00 AM
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Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
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I appreciate what Charlene said. Because I became a PT long ago, I am now a business owner, employer, teacher, writer, consultant, clinician and (at times) a respected professional.
I don't think anyone is less optimistic about our profession's future than I, and I often despair at its present, but I can't think of another degree that would have gotten me where I am today.
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[This message has been edited by Barrett (edited December 29, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Barrett (edited December 30, 1999).]
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Re: WHY? - February 29, 2000 7:38:00 PM
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Sarahlpsmiles4u@Yahoo
Posts: 1
Joined: February 28, 2000
From: San Jose, CA USA
Status: offline
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Hi there, I was reading through your discussion of the future in physical therapy. I am two days short of finishing my internship and am well aware of the situation. However, I am taking my future in physical therapy in a new direction and venture. Ever wonder what you could possibly do for someone with arthritis,MS or DM besides pt. education or a home exercise program? I have joined a team of health care professionals comprised of physicians, dentists, dieticians, physical therapists and other health care providers with entrepreneur spirits. We have recently launched a unique and exciting home-based, health-based Internet project and seek like- minded leaders. Our focus is on nutrition and the pursuit of optimal health. Our parent company is listed on the NASDAQ and has products listed in the PDR. This is an excellent opportunity for ambitious, responsible and dedicated team players. We offer training and support for qualified leaders. If interested and qualified go to [URL=http://www.healthcaringproviders.com]http://www.healthcaringproviders.com[/URL] for more information.
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Re: WHY? - March 1, 2000 3:43:00 AM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
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Dear soon2bpt:
I am not sure if I should even be replying to your post, I am more pessimistic than the rest of the group and I know I'm going to hear about this one. But I also feel that students are not being told the truth.
You should finish your degree and things will probably be fine but our profession is facing many, many challenges. I don't beleive we will surmount them all!!
Right now we experiencing a decrease in jobs. A projected PT surplus has not even hit yet, so on that front I think things are getting worse. Second, we are facing encroachment by other professions. There is a possibility that other professionals will take over parts of our market share. ATCs and chiros have done so already. Third, is that we have no professional identity. When some goes to a PT for an ortho problem, they have no idea whether they will get some osteopathic technique, MFR, manual therapy, mckenzie, manipulation, etc, etc. Who are we??
Can we surmount these challenges - yes we can. But I don't see any initiative. Most therapists are waiting around for the pendulum to swing the other way. They are not being proactive and carving out new market share. Why do you always see personal trainers on TV demonstrating exercise techniques for medical problems.
I don't think PT will ever recover fully unless your generation of PTs (I'm included) makes a drastic change.
As for the suggestions mentioned......paralegal certificate?????? I was a paralegal before going to PT school. YOu don't need a certificate only a bachelors degree without any training. If you want a certificate, then a two-year education will sufice. If I am going to end up as a paralegal then why would I ever have spent two years taking pre-reqs, busing my **** to get top grades and then borrowed so money money to finance a PT education.
Sorry about the pessimism....it's a bad habbit with me. But I think that people should be aware of what's going on.
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Re: WHY? - March 5, 2000 7:15:00 PM
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golfer852
Posts: 10
Joined: February 22, 2000
Status: offline
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I think the future of our profession is a big question in everyone's mind. Did I work this hard and come this far for it to all be jerked out from underneath me?? For people like me, I ask myself, "What other skill do I have?". That is a scary picture to look at and to think about your future. Luckily, I have started a new ".com" business from home that I do everyday for residual income and for future financial security! Believe me....there is a great deal of pride and it is very rewarding to finish PT school, but the future of this profession is looking grim...BUT I would encourage students to finish, because there is a big sense of satisfaction after finishing. The profession itself is very rewarding at times, and it gives great pride to be able to say "I am a physical therapist." This whole subject matter is why I have looked at other avenues, because you never know what could happen in the future to the PT profession.
------------------
Kim,PT
Interested in your health and financial freedom? If so, go to [URL=http://www.rexall.com/kimwalker]http://www.rexall.com/kimwalker[/URL]
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Re: WHY? - March 6, 2000 1:02:00 AM
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RotaryBzzz
Posts: 1
Joined: August 19, 2002
Status: offline
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I've been following these discussion boards for quite a while now...its refreshing to know that there are other students that know the truth....
I have to agree with Marc that STUDENTS ARE NOT being told the truth. Jesus, its crazy how much bogus sh*t I hear or how many blank stares I get when I mention "the future". To tell you the truth, it seems like most students are living in a bubble. The apta softens any rough edges on their website; rarely if ever do any professors/educators talk about downturns...their worried about their own jobs. There definately exists an info vacuum...even at the state schools. I just feel sorry for the people at a certain university in southern california (hint hint) who are coming out w/ $120k debts. I swear, they are baiting these people into going there w/ job statistics and info from 95'. Can you say "Who Wants To be a Non-Millionare?" Its SICK....i thank God everyday that I got into a state MPT program in california....i'm only paying $1800 bucks a year...I didn't even bother applying to any private schools. Otherwise I think I would be frothing at the mouth knowing i would have thousand dollar student loan payments for 15 years (or more).
a chapel somewhere in vegas....
"Hey sugar, is this a condo payment or something?"
"Uhhh, no, it's my school loan...uhh, we can live w/ your parents right?"
Where's the $$$ for a car much less a decent place to live? Or to get married?? Didn't any of these people take Finance 101>>?? Who cares about sounding politically correct .... people, for your future mental health, you gotta wake up!!!
I hate to say it (i really do) but there are days I feel like PT for me might end up being what someone said as I debated following my acceptance letter vs. going off into the world of finance. They said "just go...you can always fall back on it"...i'm sad to realize that I AM mentally lumping it in that way already...****...its harder when i realize how much time and energy and spirit I've already put in....
thanks for letting me vent! :)
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Re: WHY? - March 6, 2000 1:28:00 AM
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RotaryBzzz
Posts: 1
Joined: August 19, 2002
Status: offline
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Btw, personal bankrupcy DOES NOT get rid of/does not address federal school loans...they continue on....fyi....
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Re: WHY? - March 6, 2000 6:09:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball, MS, PT
Posts: 500
Joined: October 8, 1999
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline
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Folks,
I hear the frustrations of many students, and part of the problem is that think that they are being "lied" to in some cases. I suspect this is true in a few rare cases. I also suspect that until recently students don't want to listen (The signs of change were clear 10 years ago). Either charge lacks insight into the true nature of the problem . . . WE DON'T KNOW WHAT PT WILL LOOK LIKE IN 20 YEARS . . . SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO TEACH STUDENTS TO SURVIVE IN A FUTURE HEALTHCARE ENVIRONMENT. We don't know what skills students will need to survive in the future . . . but we're sure without eyeing possible avenues for the future, it's not possible to teach a student for effective practice that will sustain them for the duration of their professional career. God forbid the learning process continue after graduation. Many practicing PT's have not picked up a journal on the subject of PT since graduation (professional illiteracy) . . . combine that with the fact that many of the future skills needed to survive as a profession will likely come from OUTSIDE of physical therapy. WE'VE GOT A SERIOUS PROBLEM. I suspect that those PT's that are professionally illiterate are more likely to pick up the journal of physical therapy than a journal on telelearning/tele-education/computing even if we could re-teach them the alphabet.
A more significant problem is the inability of students, educators, and clinicians to think (and subsequently be taught) outside of the box. If we've learned ANYTHING about PT in the past 20 years it's that it's DYNAMIC, and nothing stays the same. Possibilities for future turns and twists in the profession need to be recognized as possibility NOW and students taught as such even if such issues never come to fruition. This is nothing new. The difficulty for educators however, is that the rapid flow information at present creates change at a much faster pace than ever before. This is the NEW NORMAL.
IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE FUTURE, GO AND HEAR JODY GANDY, PHD, PT SPEAK. I thought I was a "FIELD TILTER" until hearing her speak this past weekend. I had no idea what the future of PT may hold, and how much farther outside the box it may be possible to go.
Here are a few ways that PT might change over the next 20 years, but are PT's being trained now to face such possibilities?:
1. TeleTechnology makes it possible for a PT to see a patient, instruct on Therex through 2 way video, and even "feel" joint play and restrictions through the use of virtual reality. Doccumentation is automated via the computer's ability to pick up "key words" spoken during the conversation and keep track of exercise reps.
A higher degree, quality, and frequency of patient interaction is achieved and the PT can choose when face to face interaction is necessary. Furthermore, far more people out there in cyberspace utilize PT because it's cheap (say $15 for a consult), and easy to access when in pain (say a 12x increase in low-level access).
2. Virtual Reality could make it possible for someone to become NDT certified at a fraction of the cost because the comforts of home are retained (no extra hotel or food costs). In addition, some VR technology makes it possible to actually feel what your instructor feels during facilitation and vice versa. In theory, the curriculum could be standardized and saved in an asynchronus format . . . how many NDT instructors would we need at that point???
The future of PT is NOT bleak unless we continue to delude ourselves that the world will not change around us if we as a profession keep our fists in the air and our head in the sand.
We let managed care happen to us, we should learn from that. If we innovate and create our own future, then the limits of physical therapy are boundless. If you entered the profession thinking that healthcare would be the same on your date of graduation as when you entered the program, then you have only yourself to blame.
Drew
[This message has been edited by Andrew M. Ball, MS, PT (edited March 06, 2000).]
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Re: WHY? - March 6, 2000 1:05:00 PM
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Rose
Posts: 122
Joined: September 19, 1999
From: Ohio
Status: offline
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Well......I think my feelings are tilted towards the pessamistic corner of this debate. I have been a therapist for over 30 years and have seen the very best of being a PT. High respect, no weekends or holidays, recruiters calling 3 to 4 times a week, any job anywhere any price. I shudder when I hear the PolyAnnas say "the pendulum will swing back..it always does...". WEll the pendulum never swung for PT, we were always on top, always wanted...... and the recent classes in therapies came in at the end of the best and the beginning of the worst. Changes may have begun 10 years ago but the hard hit was within the past 2 years and the intensity was such that nobody foresaw the pay cuts, hour cuts, benefit cuts and job terminations. Unbelievable..... I have heard of classes, both PT and OT, not being able to graduate in the past 2 years because they could not find clinical affiliations...everyone is pulling out of student teaching due to staffing cuts. I STILL have high school kids IM'ing me asking me to answer a few questions because their teacher gave them a project of interviewing a PT.....and saying it is one of the TOP professions to go into....I answer the questions and then ask if they want to be a PT..... ALWAYS they respond "YES!!!!!!!" and my response ?? "don't". As I said, I have seen the best, I am living the worse ( I sincerely hope)...I retire soon...and sorry to say, I can't wait. Healthcare isn't fun anymore.
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Re: WHY? - March 9, 2000 5:52:00 AM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
Status: offline
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I agree with Bobcat and the other pessimists on the site.
If you are a student, run for cover and cut your losses!!!!!! If you are borowing private school tuition to get your education then you will not be able to afford to pay them back....Period!!!!!!!! I don't think PT has the potential to recover.
Upon recently lecturing to PT students at my old university I was dismayed to find out that students were more interested in soft-tissue techniques than the fact that they had no jobs and no immediate future.
Will recover....the answer is NO. Many people keep wondering why we are so complacent. Let me tell you the answer....PT has traditionally been staffed by people who are not the primary earners in their families. It also these people who have risen to positions of power and who have staffed the university positions. They simply aren't agressive enough!!!
As for "tilting the field", I have been working my but off for the past few years reading journals, teaching, taking courses, getting certifications and look where I am. I live paycheck to paycheck because of my loans. I happen to have a very, very good job so in that I am lucky. But I will still never get more than a 3% raise....EVER.
In this economy healthcare is one of the few areas where there is such a limited amount of total resources. With even more limtations coming the future of PT is questionable. Whether you want to admit it or not, right now there are some things that PTs do that could be done by other people - cheaper. PT is a very expensive intervention - a fact that most therapists loose site of all the time. When getting an extra 5-6 visits for that low back patient you must realize that you may be asking an insurance company to spend almost $1,000 on treatments, that in general lack validation.
My advice, think carefully. If you really want to be a PT do it. But don't break the bank financiny your education. You will feel the effects for the rest of your life.
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Re: WHY? - March 9, 2000 9:44:00 PM
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Jarlo Ilano
Posts: 3
Joined: January 27, 2000
From: Bothell, WA USA
Status: offline
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I must be an anomaly here because I like being a PT, I like my job, and I believe that what I do helps people in a way that other people cannot do. I also do not think that I am deluding myself.
Some people on this forum think they should be rewarded for attending state conferences, doing more ConEd then is required, keeping up on journals, and finding ways to treat patients effectively, efficiently, and LESS expensively. I think this is a requirement of the job. It reminds me of a Chris Rock joke about people who exclaim "I take care of my children" as if it were an option, He yells back "You're supposed to!"
Is everyone here so unhappy with our profession?
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Re: WHY? - March 10, 2000 12:26:00 AM
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Rose
Posts: 122
Joined: September 19, 1999
From: Ohio
Status: offline
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I think you are misreading everyone here, Jarlo.... we ALL love being a PT. What we DON'T love is the current state of the field as affected by the onset of PPS and managed health care systems. It has resulted in loss of jobs, reduction or loss of benefits, and reduction of services to our patients. We have so many new graduates unable to find a job and so many experienced therapists closed out of theirs. There are countless new graduates and therapists in the same boat with huge student loans to pay off and because of this current state they are in a herrendouos situation not of their causing. ..we are hurting for our peers and frustrated for ourselves. For some reason that really confuses me you have read all of us wrong.
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Re: WHY? - March 14, 2000 7:25:00 PM
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charanderson
Posts: 25
Joined: December 27, 1999
From: Newbury Park, Ca, U.S.A.
Status: offline
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I really appreciated what mcap had to say. Particularly about Physical Therapists not normally being the bread winners of the family. I think he hit the nail on the head. I am a part time PT and a mom. I enjoy the actual practice of PT, but to be honest, dislike much of the rest(paperwork,productivity quotients, etc). I would rather be home with my children.
His point about PT being an expensive service, I also agree with. When coworkers talk about merit raises and long term employment bonuses, I sit in amazement! Don't these therapists know that third party payors are trying to reduce services and cut costs? I am suprise when I hear that people actually get raises anymore. I admit I want to make more money than what I am or can currently. But I don't expect to get it with PT.
Charlene [URL=http://www.smarttiming.com]http://www.smarttiming.com[/URL]
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Re: WHY? - March 15, 2000 3:52:00 AM
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Dana D
Posts: 142
Joined: September 18, 1999
Status: offline
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I agree... the PT salary isn't what we were told as freshman in college 6 years ago!
Right now I have, I'd say, a pretty secure job... but to leave to try to broaden my horizons scares me... because it seems that now we are so easily replaced or easily disposed of for that matter (especially in larger more corporate run settings). The job security isn't what it used to be. And as far as the salary, I've been out of college for a year now, and have 3 jobs! Full time with peds, per diem weekends at a subacute setting and home care/peds through an agency. I like the variety and all, but that's what I'm doing to make money (and when i say that, i mean enough to pay my loans... not much fluff)... cuz as it was stated, to get a raise is unheard of... especially to get a raise based on merit! We get some 3% salary increase a year... okay, .......whatever!
I love PT for the now... I know I want to do something related, I just have to put on my thinking cap... See what's next...I want to go back to school, but for what exactly... that hasn't come to me yet... I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up!
[IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]
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Re: WHY? - March 21, 2000 4:15:00 AM
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lezook
Posts: 1
Joined: February 24, 2000
From: Wheeling, WV, USA
Status: offline
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I think we need to remember that all health care professions are in the same boat. So if your reason for going into this field is to assist others to regain function and mobility and you enjoy the work with others in the medical arena, you may not find a better profession than PT. We have been blessed not to go through these swings before. It is our turn. We are on a pendulum not a dive bomber. We as a profession are limited only by our own imaginations. I congratuate all of you who are being creative and novel in your approaches. Don't just hang in there... find a way to use your skills.
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Re: WHY? - March 21, 2000 2:42:00 PM
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Rose
Posts: 122
Joined: September 19, 1999
From: Ohio
Status: offline
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I feel strongly that just as we should not build false hopes for those wanting to enter the field, we should not build false hopes for those of us already in the field. We are NOT on a pendulum, it will not significently swing back to the better times we all had. The comfy Monday thru Friday, no weekends, no holidays, recruiters calling 3-4 times a week, naming our own salary and a wide open field of job choices are no more and will BE no more. We now have 7 day coverage requirements, reduced benefits and salaries, thousands and thousands out of work. Yes, our time has come. THe government and insurance companies are not going to take us back but demand more and more and more in less time for less money...it is the way of the healthcare world. Unless we hit the other high cost centers for medical professionals we will continue to have these things happen to us and our profession. I had 2 vials of blood drawn which I know was poured into a MACHINE that analyzed it and spit out a report......the cost ? A mere $1100. A friend had a sleep study done..... he slept all night hooked up to computers. Not only did that sleep cost $1300 the physician who READ the study (20 minutes, maybe?) billed his insurance another $1000. SO fellow therapists who think we are on a pendulum swing, don't fool yourselves. All of healthcare instances such as these will continue to keep healthcare hits in areas such as therapies. So don't hold your breath and wait for that pendulum to swing back.. we are UNDER that pendulum, not riding on top of it.
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