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MPT vs. DPT
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MPT vs. DPT - December 18, 2006 9:08:00 AM
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gshoops75
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This subject may have been addressed before, but I couldn't find anything recent on it, so I would like some fresh feedback. I've been visiting a number of schools, some DPT some MPT, in determining where I would like to pursue my degree. I've asked the same question of the faculty and the students: what are the pros/cons of the degree you are offering (DPT or MPT)? I have come away with the impression that MPT is the most direct, practical degree to get. What I'm told, routinely, is that their is no hiring preference and no salary differential for entry-level DPT's or MPT's. The DPT schools seem to highlight the fact that theirs is the degree of the future and that they offer more clinical experience during the course of the 3 year program. The MPT schools, I've found, will agree with this, but counter with the fact that why spend a 3rd year in school paying tuition for clinical experience you could be getting paid for if you were a licensed graduate. Additionally, they'll say that you can always go back and get a t-DPT (as a lot of practicing clinicians do) and often have your employer pay for it. The DPT programs don't seem to be able to counter this logic, and are only able to offer up the "depth" and "clinical experience" their program offers as reasons why it is of more value. Which, I certainly see value in, but I've heard many PT's tell me that "you learn more in your first year on the job than you did in all you years of school". So, why pay money (tuition) to get that experience when you could be earning money (in a job) while getting it?
The general feel that I get is that the MPT programs are very practical in their approach, ie, they see no need to bilk already financially strapped college students out of more money just to keep them on campus for another year.
So, for you current students, recent graduates, practicing clinicians, etc - what is your take?
For me, I'm leaning towards MPT, mainly because it seems to be the best, most practical method of entry into the field. I'm 30, and time is of the essence for me, and I'm married w/ a kid, so debt is an issue as well. So, I have to admit, the idea of getting in and out in practice in 2 years with less debt is appealing. And, if there is little or no hiring/salary preference given (both DPT and MPT programs have told me this), then I'm really having a hard time shooting any holes in the idea of getting an MPT.
Anyone want to take a stab at this issue/idea? Thanks in advance for your feedback...
Grant
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 18, 2006 11:18:00 AM
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tucker
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From: Texas
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Grant, I agree. Get your MPT, get paid the third year and get your t-DPT later. It's a no brainer the way I see it.
I have to say I enjoyed going back to school for my t-DPT after being out for 10 years. You have a new perspective for learning when you have a few years under the belt.
Darin Trees, PT, DPT
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 18, 2006 12:42:00 PM
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AllenB
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I'm in a DPT program (2nd year) and I see nothing wrong at all with getting the MPT for the reasons that you and Grant mention above. In TN, they only have DPT programs and that's where I could get 'in-state' tuition so it was a no brainer for me to go for the DPT.
Are the MPT programs you're considering 2 yr programs? I thought most were 2.5 .... either way, there is still a time difference. I think St. Augustine is 2.5 yrs for the DPT so that may be an option.
Hope that helped.
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 18, 2006 1:38:00 PM
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KAK
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I’m a practicing PT with a BS degree. I agree that there is no practical advantage to having a DPT. When I discussed with my husband my eventual plan to get the t-DPT he was interested in the financial/promotional benefits. When I explained there were none, he was a bit puzzled as to why I would do such a thing. I want to for my own professional growth, personal satisfaction, and to support the supposed advancement of our profession. However, there is NO way I want to make the time, and find the finances at this phase in my life (college for my oldest begins in the fall). Though I understand your reasoning, if I were in your shoes, I’d go for the DPT. I’d suck it up in the short term and be done with it! School with “a kid” is easier than school with several kids!
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 19, 2006 4:28:00 AM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
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I wonder though, how long the t-DPT will be around. I thought the plan was to offer it for the first several years then to discontinue them in favor of the traditional DPT programs.
Anybody heard anything like this?
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 19, 2006 5:18:00 AM
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PainFreeMan
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I thought most MPT programs are also 3 years in length. Mine was 33 months. Grant, which PT school you're looking at has a 2 year program?
_____________________________
Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 19, 2006 7:09:00 AM
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gshoops75
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Good stuff everyone. Thanks for the feedback. I'd love to hear more.
I have heard the notion of the eventual phasing out of the t-dpt programs, but I would think that is several years down the line with the number of practicing clinicians out there with BS and MPT degrees and the number of programs still granting the MPT, about 1/3 of those in the country as I understand it.
The program I'm considering is a 2 yr, 5 semester F-SP-SU-F-SP, 78 credit hour program with 26 weeks of clinicals during that time. It's Western Carolina Univ. I'm also in TN, where I could get in-state tuition at one of our 4 state school DPT programs, but the cost of paying one year of out of state tuition at WCU and one year of in-state (I'd establish residency) is still cheaper than paying 3 years of in-state tuition in TN. Not to mention the non-tuition "cost" of that 3rd year, in terms of not working, continuing to accrue interest on loans, etc. In addition, WCU gives out of state tuition waivers (for year 1) for their 2 best qualified out of state applicants, so there is a chance I could get in-state rates for both years.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not just looking for the quick-easy-cheap route. There's nothing easy about the change me and my family are about to undertake! But, I do think you have to be fiscally mindful about the position you put yourself in. And, no offense to private school DPT grads, but I just can't imagine racking up close to 6 figures in loans for anything less than med school or a Harvard MBA!
Any additional thoughts are welcome...
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 19, 2006 9:27:00 AM
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PTupdate.com
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I have waffled over the idea myself for quite a while.
Pros: Possibility (and I mean possibility) of being a better clinician, advantage if anything weird changes down the road with direct access ability, peer respect. Can't say the medical profession looks at a DPT with any extra attention...all physicians have told me it comes down to outcomes, patient satisfaction, and ease of working with a therapist they gel with
Cons: Lots of cash, liklihood they will phase the programs out as they have promised to, no extra earning potential.
So far, with the DPT's I have worked around, I have not been impressed enough to say "Wow, I wish I had THAT" I am established, busy as hell, have my OCS, and spend more time learning than any PT I know. Will the time and the $15K change that?
Perhaps if I owned my own place, I could funnel that expense through the business, and it would not be so bad. However, I am an employee, and most firms to not chip in for this.
One could, if self employed, break down the cost into visits and patients. $15K over 2 years, or $7500/year, at $80 NR per visit, avg 10 visits per new, means jsut 9-10 new patients in that year to pay for the cost. Will having DPT, or "Doctor" in front of ones name bring in that extra 10 patients? Will the new skills learned make one so much better that he gets that extra business through word of mouth? Perhaps. It's a crap shoot, and I'm still jiggling those dice in my hand.
John Duffy, PT OCS
[URL=http://www.PTupdate.com]www.PTupdate.com[/URL]
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 19, 2006 10:13:00 AM
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SJBird55
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From: Michigan
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Well, you have to remember, if you are already generally booked and steady, well, how the heck are you going to fit in the 9-10 new patients/year combined with the simple fact that every patient isn't going to have the same third party payor, so it isn't just a mathematical equation of the number of patients, but also what is reimbursed for those visits. Technically, you need to look at the cost of doing business... then you have to look at the number of patients currently seen and if you have more room to see patients... and then the average reimbursement per treatment visit... and then will having a DPT, which increased your cost of doing business, actually increase your profit?
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 19, 2006 4:31:00 PM
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tc
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From: Los Angeles area
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I think it's a tough call. I did my MPT when they were new and not available at local state schools, so I paid (and am still paying) the big bucks. But yes I'm glad I did that rather than having a second bachelor's. The more I talk to colleagues going back for the tDPT and discuss their classwork, I've become pretty interested and think I'll start also despite the added expense. They are learning things I don't know and I want to know. And I think I will learn more and have a better viewpoint at this stage in my career as a more experienced, adult learner.
If your plan is to go MPT, then tDPT for sure, really consider that the tDPT programs will eventually go away. I've heard that USC (So CA) will be stopping applications for theirs very soon. So you might want to just get it over with now, since you can get a DPT at a state school. In the long run, the extra 5-6 months of school won't hurt you then you won't have to spend 1-2 years of part time study for a tDPT if you do go back.
However, if you don't think you will get the DPT ever, then go MPT, it's a good education and you'll still be just as employable.
Good luck.
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 20, 2006 6:16:00 PM
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MinnDasota
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I agree w/ tc. It is a tough call. For most of the reasons he stated is why I chose to get a DPT over a masters. Either way you'll come out a highly qualified PT. There is the APTA's "vision 2020" in which they forsee all PT's as DPT's by 2020 so you might want to think about that. I understand cost and making money right away, but for me, it was all about education...education is priceless. We all have our reasons:)
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 21, 2006 1:14:00 AM
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SJBird55
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LOL Education really isn't priceless. You pay a bill for it. LOL
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 21, 2006 8:08:00 AM
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gshoops75
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Well, I certainly see both sides of the coin better now. Thank you for your comments. I'm still planning on pursuing the MPT program, because of the feel I got when I visited it vs other programs. As for the t-dpt's and Vision 2020 program, I'm gonna hold out hope that in 2009 (when I graduate) there will still be a great # of clinicians in practice w/o dpt and some programs around the country still in transition, such that t-dpt's will still be available. And, if not, then at some point in my career I would look at pursuing a Dsc in PT. In fact, I've talked to a number of practicing MPT's and BSPT's that have made it clear that they don't intend to get a t-dpt at all, Vision 2020 be ****ed. Their reasoning is "why would I want to get another 'entry level' degree that's not going to advance my career?". These folks have made it clear that if they spend any time and/or $$ to get another degree, it would be the Dsc (or in lesser instances, an MBA), something that would allow them to pursue a role other than practicing clinician. Your thoughts on this line of thinking...?
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - December 21, 2006 6:13:00 PM
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tc
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Depends where your focus is. I don't want to teach or do research, so the DSc is overkill for me, as is a PhD. If I was going back for a PhD, I'd do neuroscience.
If you want something besides clinical PT, then sure go that way. But if you want clinical PT, I do believe the tDPT can add new knowledge to your current knowledge. It certainly can't be teaching you any less than con-ed courses, right? And we are all in support of those (I think).
If you just want to "advance your career", what does that mean? A higher position? Management? You can also get board certified as well. Or get an MBA and open a clinic, but that's "just another" master's if you want to look at it that way.
The way I see it, if you are interested in more knowledge that will affect your clinical skills and reasoning, and if you can manage to afford it, why not do the tDPT. The finances are all that's been holding me back. I want to learn more about pharmacology and diagnostics. Even if I can't order the MRI, I want to understand why certain tests are ordered and what they can and can't tell me. I want to be able to better screen my patients, know red flags for referral. I don't expect to get a "doctor" title and talk to an MD as a fellow "doctor". But I think the actual education you can gain from a good program will provide you will the educational background to speak more intelligently to the referring physician, ask more pertinent questions and be more involved overall.
Just my two cents. :)
tc
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - January 19, 2007 7:10:00 PM
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cej7
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In response to earlier comments from those not being 'impressed' with new entry-level DPTs.. I think there are a few things to consider before making such judgments.
As a member of Colorado's first graduating entry-level DPT program 3 years ago, I think much of my educational dead-time occurred in the clinic, not in the classroom, learning from PTs who were outdated in terms of their education. I have no problem learning from someone with more practical experience than classroom experience, however, the new parts of the PT curriculum were not generally reinforced in the clinic (i.e. ddx, radiology, pharmacology, basic thrust manipulation, evidence incorporated practice, etc..). More often than not, we were in a position of either teaching our teachers, or learning to their level of knowledge.
While I imagine a similar issue existed when the bachelors to masters transition occurred, but this time there was often the added ‘threat’ that we were going to be titled “doctors” upon graduation, giving it an additional level of tension and sometimes disdain. Being a inquisitive DPT student many times made you a target for additional scrutiny, or criticism by threatened or resistant clinicians. Times were not what they may have seemed to be in terms of advancing education. I know this was not an experience unique to me because it was a commonly discussed issue when returning to the classroom from clinicals.
A paradigm shift is occurring, and I believe it greatly impacts the educational curve. I’m sure once the novelty of the DPT wears off, insecurities fade, and more CIs of various educational backgrounds know how and where to push students, we will see a pretty significant change in the entry-level DPT. But first we need to get past the clinical education transition phase.
As for the t-DPT graduates, did your transition education change how you mentor PT students?
Overall, I am glad I did it all right away. As with any fledgling program, there is value in the experience itself. I am now a very demanding CI who expects PT students to maximize the use of their thinkin' bone--we are professionals, not technicians!!
Liz
ps. To answer the question at hand, here are my thoughts:
#1 Go with the strongest academic program available--where they produce the best product, not title.
#2 Generally, I advise people newly entering the field to obtaining the entry-level DPT because I feel it is important to be the most prepared, up-to-date entry level clinican you can be, not the one who just wants the shortcut because it's an option
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - January 20, 2007 3:06:00 AM
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jma
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Grant,
Do keep one thing in mind. I see that you mentioned that you are graduating in 2009. Don't be surprised that during the time you are there, that you program converts to a DPT program. It happened to my program but after I graduated.
Fortunately, those in the class after me had a choice, either graduate with the Masters' or stay longer to get the DPT. When you start the program, find out if the program will convert to a DPT down the road and see if that option will be possible or not. I have heard of some students that started anticipating graduating with a Masters', only to learn that they had to graduate with a DPT.
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - January 23, 2007 8:09:00 AM
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matotoms
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think of yourself as a business owner. you have to pay up to get the goods, a degree, that allows you to practice and make some money.
The DPT does not make a bit of difference to your earning potential.
keep your expenses low, get the cheaper degree.
if you think you have been cheated out of some knowledge after you graduate there are about a biliion courses you can take.
the degree DOES NOT make the practicioner. this is why PTs are competing with LMTs who have 6 months of training.
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - January 23, 2007 10:40:00 AM
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PHSPT
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Well said Liz,
Unfortunately I think mt missed the mark "think of yourself as a business owner".... this philosophy has shortchanged our profession and produces the type of CI's that Liz and many others have encountered.
"Quality not quantity"
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - January 23, 2007 10:43:00 AM
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PHSPT
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From: Oklahoma
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BTW,
What does the DPT have to do w competing w LMT's???
where do see PT's competing w LMT's????
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Re: MPT vs. DPT - January 23, 2007 3:56:00 PM
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irina
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From: Florida
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I have started DPT. It was 135 credit hours program-3 full years. Then I transferred to MSPT program to other state. It was 71 credit hour program. I agree that it is better to get MPT degree in 2 years with spending less money, time, effort, have less stress with tests and exams and be able to spend more time with family. The lisencure exam is same for MPT and DPT students.
DPT programs have overload of classess for students that iclude, but ethics (3 credit hours), consulting (3.0), micriobiology, critical thinking,etc that are not critical for practicing and are not tested on National Exam but require a lot of paperwork, timeconsuming, and financial issue for books and tuition.
I would recommend to go for 2 years MPT, start making money, start getting experience as soon as you can and let employer to pay for you t-DPT. You can make money with continuing your experience in clinic and get t- DPT degree at the same time.
_____________________________
Irina
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