Applying for my DPT

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alh422 -> Applying for my DPT (September 29, 2005 7:58:00 AM)
I've decided to back for my DPT and am in the beginning processes and am a lost and frustrated and looking for some guidance. I have an undergrad liberal arts degree so pretty much as far as prereq's go I am starting from scratch. I live in Utah and ideally would like to attend the Univ. of Utah but obviously can't put all my eggs in one basket as it's very competitive to get into despite the fact that they are not ranked very high. Where I am frustrated is that every school has different prereq's so I don't know what to take first and really even where else to apply. I've looked at the APTA website and seen the lists of schools but beyond the places where i would ideally like to live I have no idea where I can even get in. I know that there is the "top 20" listed in US News and World Report but that doesn't help me figure out where I can realistically get in. Some schools want a whole extra year of chemistry behind the one year of gen chem (which some schools want some biochem included) is it worth it to take an extra year of chemistry for one school? Any guidance or recommendations would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

jma -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 29, 2005 2:10:00 PM)
This was the case when I first decided to see how I would apply to PT schools. They all had similarities and differences as well. I took the year long sciences just to cover myself and didn't worry about the schools that just wanted one semester of one science as an example. When I got into the PT program, I found out that there were other courses I had to take. Fortunately, I took it at the same school and then got into the program. Don't go for the rank, go for the education. The other courses besides the sciences vary a lot from school to school. You can't take them all. Take what the majority is asking and go from there.

Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 29, 2005 4:00:00 PM)
"Don't go for the rank, go for the education." What does that mean, exactly? Every time I hear that kind of comment, it first makes me feel that I should somehow apologize for having earned a DPT from MGH/Harvard, or apologize for my wife for having earned a DPT from Duke. Therapists who say that don't seem to realize how offensive it is, nor how many people with DPT's from top-ranked schools simply bite their tounges in anger or disgust. Call it defensive, but I get more than a little offended that I'm made to feel that I should somehow apologize for my DPT, and for where I got it, just to placate everyone else's fragile unranked or non-DPT egos. No more. I agree that not everyone can (nor need) go to a top ranked program, there are other factors to consider (cost, proximity to home, ability to gain acceptance, etc.) but are you suggesting that the education at an unranked school is just as good as a top 5 program? Come now. Offended? Good. Now take that and apply to a top t-DPT program if you’re already a PT, and apply to the best ranked school that you think you can get into if you’re not already a PT. “Don’t go for rank, go for education,” is about the WORST advice I’ve heard in a long time. Higher rank IS better DPT education, and the only people pushing any other motto seem to have issues either with the ranking of their own program (everyone went to a “great” school in their own mind), or the fact that they earned a BSPT or MPT instead of a DPT. Placate yourselves if you wish, but let’s not pass corrupted advice upon the next generation of DPT’s. There are many, many, many routes to being a good clinician (good internships, quality continuing education --- whatever that means, etc.). There are more routes, however, to being a substandard therapist who is blissfully unaware of how bad a therapist they are. Going to an unranked school, while not ensuring that one will be a substandard therapist upon graduation, certainly puts one on the path toward being mediocre. Someone's got to be average, but why intentionally target an academic career to be, “not bad” at best? Drew

kragar -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 29, 2005 4:14:00 PM)
Do me a favor Andrew, PLEASE stop saying "earned a DPT from MGH/Harvard", must it come up at every third posting?? Who cares? It is PT school, they teach something there that they don't teach at U of Indianapolis or Wash U or Ohio State? Nope. Some of the BEST PT education can be found in small school settings...we aren't learning ground breaking surgical procedures, we are practicing in everyday environments and last time I checked the PT in Louisville wasn't doing anything different than a PT at Harvard. We all use a gait belt the same way! Furthermore, employers do NOT necessarily look at WHERE you graduated...it is not like medical school and it is not like law school. Having hired and interviewed many PT's in the past, "where" you graduated has less to do with the new grad than "experience" (ie being an ATC, or exercise physiologist). My advice, find a program that is nearby, does not cost an arm and a leg (we all make the same dough) and provides good financial assistance. Be aware that debt repayment is not an easy task. This statement "Going to an unranked school, while not ensuring that one will be a substandard therapist upon graduation, certainly puts one on the path toward being mediocre." Is the biggest line of BS I have ever heard...it is one person's opinion (arrogant it seems) and has no basis in fact. It is like the rich private school kid making fun of the poor public school kid. None of that, regardless of field/profession, has EVER been proven factual. Sorry if I appear upset, but that was extremely offensive and simply wrong.

Echaconas -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 29, 2005 5:26:00 PM)
Another thing that must be considered is what aspects of PT interest you. If you want to get involved with research look at schools whose curriculums are research heavy like Duke, Miami, Wash U etc. If Being a great orthopedic manual PT is what you want to do look at schools like Michigan state and University of St. Augustine. I admit that I am biased, but while students at the top 5 schools may be writing better papers than me right now, I doubt they just spent all morning practicing sub-cranial mobs and all afternoon learning advanced SI evaluation.

Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 29, 2005 5:32:00 PM)
Krager, Opinions vary. Furthermore, top-ranked does not mean private. UNC-Chapel Hill, for example, what many would consider to be the best dollar-value for PT education, was the first PUBLIC university in the country. I would disagree with your premise about top schools not attracting better faculty and as a result, teaching (for example) a wider range of electives (such as women's health, advanced pathology, etc.) within a more evidence-based framework than the unranked programs. Furthermore, the quality of student attracted to a top-ranked program is very different than the student attracted to an unranked program. The difference in implicit curricula and culture of education despite your being upset and repulsed by the reality --- exists. Sorry to offend, but I stand by the comments. Why target onself to be surrounded by fewer top-notch faculty, fewer top-notched researchers, fewer innovative students, etc.? If that's the best one can do, that's one thing, but why set out to be substandard to one's best abilities? That kind of personal characteristic, as much as, if not more than, than the school attended, sets the potential student on the WRONG PATH. Finally, we DON'T all use a gait belt the same. The new transfer protocol that we started at our hospital resulted in more than an 80% decrease in transfer-related worker injury over 3 years. The point is, those who don't know generally don't know that they don't know it. MAXIMIZE YOUR POTENTIAL! The only people offened by that kind of message, frankly, are those who simply haven't. Drew P.S. Eric, good point, you beat me to the punch on that, but even then, you'll note that the schools you listed were all relatively highly ranked.

Echaconas -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 29, 2005 6:00:00 PM)
Dr. Ball, Actually my school the University of St. Augustine is not ranked at all. I could be wrong but I believe that we probably get more orthopedic manual therapy training than 95% of the schools in this country. My point is that a prospective student who wants to become a great manual clinician could easily overlook a great education if they only applied to the top 20 programs.

Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 1:33:00 AM)
First of all, yes, you are wrong. Dr. Parris may be very well known, and may have lead the charge to get so much ortho manual PT into our education programs, but that gap has long since eroded. Guys like Chad Cook, PT, PhD at Duke down to Dr. Lee down at the obscure Alabama State program teach very advanced manual therapy in their programs. Better, worse, can be debated --- but certainly no less intense. I will, however, say that Dr. Parris and his followers tend to subscribe to one, single approach, as opposed to others who are more broad-based in their technique. "Better" or more "intense" than 95% of other programs is a marketing ploy that is patently false, or at the very least long outdated. More intense orthopedic manual therapy than 50% of programs is probably more likely. That said, your point is well taken, but I'd argue that until very recently there was so much Dr. Parris forced staff turnover at St. Augustine that the prospective student sometimes doesn't end up with what he or she thought they'd barganed for in terms of faculty. Furthermore, although the orthopedic program is quite strong there, it's not known for its neuro, peds, women's health, or acute care education. Some would argue that it leaves the student unprepared in those areas, others would say that the student learns on internship (from essentially a volunteer clinical instructor in a nonstandardized way), or that anything other than orthopedics misses the point of the USA program. If a student changes intended specialization (as many do, from ortho to something else), there really isn't much support for the student is there? Drew

SJBird55 -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 2:19:00 AM)
Well, except toss in the unreliability of a lot of that manual stuff and what do you have? Garbage in... garbage out.

JLS_PT_OCS -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 2:39:00 AM)
Drew- It seems you are going out of your way to be offended at JMA's commonsense advice, and now taking a shot at another school? Come now, sir, what's this about? You make good points about trying to get into good schools (whatever "good" or "ranked" really means) and maximizing your potential. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. But I have to say, you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder when it comes to this "what school should I go to" issue. While you may be right that students from top-ranked schools are demonstrably more competent, I am not aware of any actual data to support this presumption. Are you? In hiring/firing and salary decisions, I am sure many things go into that equation: school attended, work experience, degree level, ABPTS certification, other experience/certification, etc. I don't think anyone here faults you for going the route you did, and you certainly have a wealth of information for everyone here on the educational system in general and for PT in specific. I have benefited indirectly from your insightful and timely advice in pursuing my tDPT as well. But it seems to me you are seeing well-meaning and perfectly reasonable advice to someone else as an attack on you and your choices. I don't think that's warranted. I don't speak for anyone else, but it's just something to think about. Many people here have recommended against someone getting their ABPTS certification, and I don't even want to say what people have said about the CSCS. I don't take that personally or as an assault on me or my choices. I don't consider myself necessarily a superior therapist to someone else who doesn't have some group of letters after their name. I'm just not that personally invested in it like that. Should I go on a rant about how foolish it is for you to have gained all this experience and education and yet not (apparently) pursued your ABPTS certification? Should I write that my practice competence is superior to yours or something? It feels as if you are doing that sometimes to others, and I'm not sure if you mean that. I assume you don't. Look, I'm not trying to be harsh or start a war, just to ask where some of this comes from, that's all. And thanks again for the great advice on the tDPT a couple months back... J MPT University of Scranton, Scranton, PA Proud to be a tDPT student at Scranton also. (It's well rated, but not a Nationally-ranked Top 20 school, much to the detriment of my patients, apparently)

Echaconas -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 7:47:00 AM)
Dr. Ball, Actually, the same person who has been teaching the course for many years has taught all of the manual courses I have taken and most have written the course manual. I don’t know where you get your information but that statement about turnover is not correct. You are correct that the education lacks some pediatrics strength with only two courses. As far as neuro goes I have pretty much had a neuro class in every semester. Are you kidding, "The student learns on internship". Do you honestly think that they just throw us out there on internship without a solid foundation of neuro knowledge and hands on skills? You would be very surprised to hear this but we learn the McKenzie approach as well. Yes, that’s right, the exact opposite approach is taught to us as well. We do not get a whole class on it but it is a portion, we practice and are tested on this approach. The manual stuff we learn is mostly based on the work of Dr. Paris, Katlenborn and Maitland. This is one school of thought, but it is based on Anatomy and Biomechanics. It is a great manual foundation and the students are encouraged to learn other approaches after graduation. I personally plan on taking the Mulligan courses after I graduate in a few months.

alh422 -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 8:56:00 AM)
Dr Ball, Thank you for your input on the importance of attending a top ranked school but that was not my question. Obviously we all want to go to the best that we can, but my question is "how do I figure out where I can go?" Not everyone can get into a top 10 school...they each only take 20-30 students (for the most part), so what about the rest of us? If you can provide some constructive support, suggestions, advice on how to figure where to realistically apply that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

FLAOrthoPT -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 11:20:00 AM)
and come on, yo uthink getting int oa "top" school matter so much on what you know and not who you know? I know with familial connections I can get into the top 3 schools out there, does it mean I am now a better student than joe shmoe going there or joe shmow who went to east bumblebee school because his wife was rooted in her job and he couldn't pick up and leave town. I do agree with the general consensus that Dr. Ball is standing atop an ivory pedastal somewhere where we can all see he is full of snot. I have climbed my through just fine, getting my OCS, and advnaced manual certifications in less than 2 years after graduating, another one of my classmantes is an NFL PT 1 1/2 years after graduating, anothe runs one of the largest ergonomic firms in south florida one year after graduating, I do not need to go on. It totally depends on what you want out of your education, your learning style, etc. I cannot be in a clasroom being lectured, I'd go nuts, I needed a case study problem based learning format, so I picked accordingly. I am not going to go to the extreme and say the top ranked schools have mediocre professors, of course they are some of the most published PTs in the country, but to me I'd rathe rbe taught by some of the best practicing clinicians. Look for a school that is reasonably priced, low cost of living while in school, good networking potential with the community around it, and in a teaching format well suited for you, etc. The rank of the school does not matter in the least bit, make sure it is accreddited and has had no problems with its accreditation. You only get out of school what you put in it, the Harvard Fairies do not come around at night and sprinkle wisdom dust in your ears, you only get as good of an education as you pursue. You need to be active at school, ask a lot of questions, read a lot, put in your 110%, link up with a goo dmentor, and you'll be fine. I think there are WAY too many non top ranked graduates out there leading the field to put much merit in what Dr. Ball is saying. Happy Hunting, Ben

JLS_PT_OCS -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 11:29:00 AM)
Wisdom dust....I love it. :) Ben, you shouldn't hold back like that. Tell us how you really feel. :) J

Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 1:11:00 PM)
I think you all are taking what I'm saying more than a little bit out of context. Let me rephrase: "While the ranking of the school is not the ONLY factor to be considered, it is A SIGNIFICANT factor to be considered. The idea that rank of the program is not associated with the quality of the education is false. It is not a direct relationship, but a relationship surely exists." I AM NOT saying that only PT's from top ranked schools are worth more than those from unranked schools. What I object to, however, is the the idea that rank has no relationship to quality education or the culture of professionalism (versus careerism). To be more specific, I have a small problem with rank-and-file clinicians holding that assumption, but I have a HUGE issue with PT's passing on the "it doesn't matter" advice to potential PT's. I didn't intend to come off as rank being the only factor to consider, nor do intend to imply that it's the most significant factor --- only that it is A significant factor. Finally Eric, several close professional friends of mine were former faculty at USA before Dr. Parris cycled through one of his "house cleaning fits" in the late 1990's. Several used to frequent this forum. One is a forum moderator. That said, EVERY program has its ugly stepchild educational issue --- USA is not unique in that regard. I'd be happy to wax the pros and cons of the top-ranked programs (including my own programs) with which I'm familiar and try to do so in a fair and balanced way. Drew

Echaconas -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 3:10:00 PM)
Fair enough, I have heard about the balanced budget act and what it did to my school as well as other PT schools. I can not say much about that since I was not around. I can tell you that I purposefully came to this school because I wanted to get a great manual therapy education and I am extremely happy with my education. I believe that Dr. Paris and his instructors are wonderful. They give us a great foundation to build upon. I just need to expand on this knowledge through clinical mentorship and continuing education. I am actually considering an orthopedic manual therapy residency and if you know of any good ones please let me know.

JLS_PT_OCS -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 3:35:00 PM)
Drew- Fair enough. I can't believe you went all "Fox News" on us there, at the end. :) I think perhaps the reason many of us are sending the "it doesn't matter" signal to students is that it is directly reflective of our clinical experience. Have you any evidence that these programs produce a better product to the extent that it should be given a greater weight than other factors (cost, location, etc)? I'm not sure, but I have a feeling you do not. If indeed "a relationship surely exists" then how might we demonstrate that relationship? If it is not possible to demonstrate it, then should we be talking about it? I have seen this phenomenon of judging people based on the school they went to in other fields (sadly, in Medicine also) and have always seen it as quite silly and not representative of my direct personal experience. Nor of others I have spoken to about this issue. I'm not saying you are advocating judging people like that, but that making school rankings a significant factor might contribute to such a practice. What do you think about that? J

Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 7:54:00 PM)
Jason, I am against the idea of school rankings playing any part in reimbursement differentials by 3rd party payers. We are ALL licensed as PT's. I do not think that there is any risk of that occuring in the near future. There is actually a study that tried to look into DPT salary versus MPT, and this was when some of the better ranked programs were the only ones with DPT's. It found only a small difference in salary, but it did find a greater percentage of graduates engaged in extra-occupational professional activities. One could argue that the top-ranked programs do a better job of installing a sense of professionalism (versus careerism). I'll see if I can't dig it up. I seem to think it was written by Jensen and/or Gwyer. There are of course mounds of data that look into thinks like post-(D)PT pursuit of graduate education, pass rate on license exam, attrition, etc. The case can be made that these things don't matter, I'd simply disagree. I think that professionalism (versus careerism), and wide range of clinical experiences and opportunities does make for not just a better individual --- but for a more qualified base of clinicians as a group. It is the latter that I am more concerned. Individuals don't generally make significant change without the support of a broad base of others --- and this profession, as it progresses through transition to direct-access clinical doctoring --- is in need of a dramatic paradigm shift . . . and fast. Shooting for the middle simply won't help us AS A GROUP achieve our collective vision. Drew

Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: Applying for my DPT (September 30, 2005 7:56:00 PM)
Eric, Look into OGI, the Kaiser fellowship in CA, the Duke fellowship in NC, and the fellowship with Bob Duval in Atlanta. Let me know if you need specific contact information. (DrDrewpt@msn.com) Drew

SJBird55 -> Re: Applying for my DPT (October 1, 2005 2:38:00 AM)
Hey, I stayed in Michigan and I graduated from a university that was surrounded by corn fields. LMAO I don't think the place would be ranked as anything... accredited is accredited. I never considered leaving Michigan and frankly I don't care that where I went wasn't in the top 5 or top 10. If you read Jensen.... what makes an expert therapist different than an average therapist does not lie in the therapist's educational background or in any extra credentialing. What makes an expert therapist isn't anything that can be taught. What I'd suggest is to not worry about where you go... read that article by Jensen... reflect on that article... find value in the qualities that expert therapists possess... be enlightened by those characteristics and make them a primary focus of yourself as you evolve. How I would make my decision IF I were to snag a DPT... IF I had all the cash I needed and IF I could go anywhere and had no responsibilities to where I currently reside... I would methodically plot out where certain authors/researchers are located. I would put value more in the networking and the research being produced and the degree to which I enjoy that research.... and of course the personalities of those particular folks would definitely come into play - if the therapist was more irritating and grated on my nerves, forget that program. (In other words, I'd basically "interview" them - I'm the "customer" and my needs come first.) I defininitely wouldn't use someone else's "rank" of the program to drive my needs, goals and desires. And only you know what you needs, goals and desires are...

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