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Re: Applying for my DPT
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 2, 2005 5:08:00 PM
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kragar
Posts: 23
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Well, the most important factor is YOU. Do not buy into any unproven BS that the "big name" schools provide a better education...never has been proven, can't be proven, simply doesn't exist.
One should choose a school based upon "fit" and the mundane things such as 1. ability to pay back loans 2. there is NO pay difference between grads 3. And realizing, ultimately Mentors make the therapist, not the school...and there are fantastic mentors found in every corner of our country.
Arrogance can be bred, I think it is a distasteful characteristic of many programs. Unfortunate.
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You're my boy Blue!
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 2, 2005 6:10:00 PM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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From: USA
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Drew-
I agree with your point about "shooting for the middle", if we're talking about individual committment and competence. Like a professor of mine from PT school once said, "Mediocrity Sucks".
However, if you consider "shooting for the middle" in terms of competence as the same as going to a mid-ranked school, then I think that's just silly. I think we cannot assume that students attending those mid-ranked (or god-forbid, lower ranked) schools are getting less in the way of professionalism or range of experiences.
I stand by my last statement that discussed whether we could show that students from higher ranked programs are better clinicians. I don't think we can. Things like aid packages, tuition cost, location, etc are a lot more objective. Isn't the point of professional education and accreditation that the schools put out a homogenous product regardless of location?
SJ makes a great point about the Jensen article about expert practice in PT...very thoughtful stuff.
Kragar also does about mentoring.
But what does this have to do with attending higher ranked schools?
I do agree with you that we need a paradigm shift, but if Eric here is any example, I think we're doing pretty well in that regard.
I have a feeling you're not entirely wrong here, Drew. There probably is a difference between the top 5 programs and the bottom 5. But how much? And how much of this difference has to do with resources as opposed to educational quality, devotion of faculty, professionalism, etc? And if this difference is so small and difficult to measure, should we be really concerned about it at all?
Or should we be more interested in preparing graduates to meet Vision 2020?
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 3, 2005 3:30:00 AM
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ehanso
Posts: 353
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From: Minnesota
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I feel depressed knowing that I graduated from a non-ranked school. I am so grateful for the support given to me by the system allowing me the gift of a license and membership in the APTA. Without these generous handouts, I am sure I would have been an abject failure in this and all other professions. Everyday I tell my patients that I was not good enough to go to a top ranked school for my education. They too seem forgiving and some even agree to get better in spite of my rather marginal background.
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 3, 2005 1:30:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
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From: Charlotte, NC
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Come now FallsPT, that's not at all what I'm saying.
Drew
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Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 3, 2005 5:37:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
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From: West Palm Beach
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dr.ball you really do set yourself up for some beat downs on here, I admire you for keeping poise during the pelting.
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 5, 2005 4:40:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
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From: Indianapolis
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Wow...all I can say is WOW. To actually believe some of that nonsense is really interesting. Hmmm.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 6, 2005 2:54:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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Wags which nonsense are you referring to?
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 6, 2005 3:21:00 PM
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TRandall
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Of course there is a difference in quality of programs. For example, for entry level musculoskeletal specialty no one can come close to the Army Baylor program. And it does matter to employers. I'll pay 5k more for a baylor graduate site unseen. by the way I'm not an alumnus.
The 'fit' can also be a factor but I wouldn't discourage someone from go for the
'best'
TR
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 6, 2005 5:47:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
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From: Indianapolis
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Most of the "Drew spew"
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Dr. Wagner DO
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 7, 2005 1:57:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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To actually believe that Dr. Wagner still has his pulse on the practice of physical therapy is, in my opinion, "spew" as well. To suggest that I'm the arrogant one around here . . . well if THAT isn't the pot calling the kettle black! Ten years ago, back when he graduated, all schools pretty much trained technical subordinates to physicians within a very narrow scope. That's no longer the case. Dr. Wagner both doesn't believe that, nor does he agree with that trend as it begins to erode the value of his having completed a DO in the first place.
He wants us all to know, and submit to the idea, that he's at the top of the food chain and that all PT's must submit to his specific orders. That PT's should never treat without physician referal. In that world, I'd agree, rank of school doesn't matter. I'd also suggest that much to Dr. Wagner's chagrin . . . the world, and the practice of physical therapy is changing.
You all really want to take HIM as an authority with that agenda?
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 7, 2005 2:53:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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This is kind of an intriguing argument. I would ask myself, "Why am I getting the degree?"
If it is simply so that I don't "get left behind" then any accredited DPT should do because I'll possess the ticket to board the bus bound toward utopia. The ticket taker typically doesn't care whether I got it through a Ticketmaster or some other vendor. If it's an accredited ticket, I'm on.
If I'm getting it because of professional duty then, again, it shouldn't matter where I get it. I've done my duty. My peers may judge me, as they will. But they'll get over it and still think I'm at least more professional than that MPT or BS holder (but not as professional as themselves of course).
If it is knowledge I seek then it could matter whom my teachers are. However, even that doesn't help pick a school necessarily. For instance a well-ranked school might be full of characters like Barrett Dorko and that would suit me just fine but SJ might have some sort of lawsuit against the school before she was through. I can also envision a reverse scenario.
Perhaps now I'm at the point that I won't depend on the school or the teacher. If they're good, then great, and if not, I'll get through the material in my own way if I'm self motivated and passionate about the material.
However, if we continue down that road, I may conclude that I don't even need to go to school because, if I'm sufficiently motivated and passionate, I can learn this information in my own time. If I don't actually learn the material in my own time then I'm self deluding myself that either I'm actually interested in the material (or that I'm smart enough to understand the material on my own and thus do need the teachers).
But where does that leave the DPT? Well it seems I'm not the first to have thought about this. I think this is where the promise of a better life to come or ‘professional duty’ comes in.
That said, and I've stated this before, if getting your DPT is what you want then get it. In my opinion, the “best” way to do that, considering the above, is the way you’re most likely to actually do it. But if specifically learning from another is what you want then you might have some hard work ahead of you to figure out who it is teaching and what they’re teaching (beyond the requirement for accreditation) because those who rank schools (or pay extra money for where you went to school versus what you know and do) may have different values than you. If you're really lucky you might get the degree and teachers you'd prefer. Anyone who figures that out is truly lucky or truly self-motivated.
jon
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 7, 2005 2:55:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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I won't step into the Ball/Wagner argument here.
Drew-
I don't disagree with your points regarding the changing healthcare system and the fact that many providers are not very knowledgeable about the changing and evolving roles of different professions.
I also do not disagree with your premise that many (perhaps most?) physicians are trained to think we are merely technicians and exercise nurses, and are unaware of the peer-reviewed journal evidence of pur diagnostic and treatment skill.
Heck, i'd be pretty mad if I couldn't be the top dog anymore and people I considered inferior were better diagnosticians and treatment experts than me, so I guess I understand the difficulty many physicians find themselves in. For what it's worth, the newer graduates seem quite comfortable in their skills and knowledge and respect my contributions to patient care, not caring whether or not I see patients without their permission. They sort of have enough on their plate as it is.
However, this is a separate issue from the school ranking thing.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 7, 2005 4:35:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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Wow Drew, you have a major complex...have you sought help? Really, why do you have an overwhelming feeling that no one respects you? That you must somehow either 1. prove yourself at every turn 2. Insult someone else to make yourself feel better? All of my peers have FANTASTIC respect for PT/OT and other rehab professionals. Absolutely. But you have such a complex, a virtual paranoia, that it is quite embarassing for you. No one thinks poorly of PTs dude, certainly not I.
My initial VERY SMALL remark was about your ideas on "the best programs" and everything else regarding program rank... pure nonsense and unproven.
Don't be so defensive when it comes to me, you should feel so threatened.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 7, 2005 7:44:00 AM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2293
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From: Michigan
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Heck, I'll step in the argument... Drew, are you insinuating that you are not arrogant? Take a reality check, you give more than the normal dose of arrogance in your posts.
Whoa... If we are treated or viewed as subordinates or technicians, then the behaviors directed toward us probably don't have anything to do with our degree or our skill or our knowledge, but instead our own behaviors and attitudes of our own character in our communications with physicians, combined with a little bit of a physician's perspective (which CAN be changed, believe it or not). There are a few physicians that really do have what I lovingly term the "God complex." For those particular physicians, everyone, and I mean everyone, ranks below them.
90% of the time I am not treated as a subordinate and amazingly, I graduated from some no namer surrounded by cornfields! (I can't even imagine what being treated as a subordinate would feel like.) Maybe it's me, but I do not communicate with physicians in a manner that even allows a subordinate seed to sprout. Even though I have to have that signed piece of paper to treat patients (which does seem to lend toward the technician side of things), I am of the attitude that I'm the specialist in getting the person in front of me back to life. I'm a part of a team and I'm the key player in movement disorders and getting folks back to life as realistically as possible. I don't spend a bit of time wondering or worrying about what physicians think about me - I have to focus on the patient and on the patient's needs. A DPT may be helpful, I don't know... but I do know that our own behaviors and interactions have a definite role in how we are treated and viewed by others (physicians included). It doesn't require a DPT to receive respect or trust of physicians. It also doesn't require a DPT to have the freedom to practice as one desires - 90+% of patients I treat just have the "treat per evaluation" on it... and whenever I have contacted a physician for assistance and the physician knows me and my work, the response I always receive is "use your judgment" or "do what you think is best." I'm left thinking... "thanks for nothing - you've just given me enough rope to hang myself if I screw up." LOL
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 7, 2005 8:14:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
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Here comes the mud, everybody get down....
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 7, 2005 12:52:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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No complex at all. You don't seem to think that rankings matter. I, by contrast, do. You've also clearly staked out an agenda here with respect to how you view your former profession's evolution. What exactly is insulting about calling you out on that point.
Finally, we should remember that comments made in text tend to come over far more offensive than they do in face to face meetings. Perhaps I've taken offense when I should not have, but in that, my friend, I'm not alone.
Drew
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Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 7, 2005 5:04:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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I won't reply because SJ did a fantastic job of stating my thoughts exactly.
No mud is being thrown, Drew just needs to relax and stop compensating. He defines "small man syndrome"...
I will restate, I and all of my peers respect PTs and OT's...my best friend is a PT...good lord.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 23, 2005 12:50:00 PM
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Sean_Collins
Posts: 74
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From: Massachusetts
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I cannot seem to find anywhere in this thread a discussion of what is offered by PT education by different programs that is not captured by rankings. Since rankings in US News and World Report are based on popularity ONLY, I would say there is a lot of information students should consider besides those rankings. Cost (PT's graduating from more expensive programs do not earn more); faculty; pass rate on teh national exam (available from the APTA); information from students that have graduated; location; just to name a few.
Now - two things about the popularity of PT education rankings. The popularity is usually based on the University or College as a whole, not the PT program in that University or College. CAPTE requires for accreditation a committement from the University administration to a PT program as evidenced by several indicators. Therefore, even small colleges and universities that people may have never ever heard of, may attract highly qualified faculty, have tremendous resources and offer an excellent education. This does not mean that highly ranked schools are not better, or that they are better. The weakness of the rankings poor approach to ranking manifests as an inability to make a judgement based on the rankings.
Another thought, The MGH Institute of Health Professions is affiliated with MGH and MGH is affiliated with Harvard, therefore, and being from the Boston area, and having worked at MGH, I would NEVER say that the IHP's PT program is a "Harvard" program. It is more like a cousin twice removed of Harvard. Once an earned PhD is present - i woudl ask - where did you earn your PhD, who was your advisor and what did your dissertation accomplish?
For a PT student - did you pass the exam? GEt a job? Achieve what you have wanted in the profession?
_____________________________
Sean M. Collins, PT, ScD, CCS
Associate Professor
Research Coordinator
Department of Physical Therapy
Coordinator, Graduate Program in Disability Outcomes
Adjunct Professor, Department of Work Environment
School of Health &
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 23, 2005 1:36:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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Well put. I wholeheartedly agree.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: Applying for my DPT - October 23, 2005 2:29:00 PM
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jma
Posts: 2312
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From: NY
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Very well put.
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