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hard floors and backache , what's the connection?
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hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 7, 2005 1:35:00 PM
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ginger
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I have often wondered about the consequences of standing on hard cold surfaces. It is often recommended that industry take care with floor coverings , to reduce the incidence and severity of low back ache. I don't doubt from my own experience , and from what I read , that a rubber floor is preferred to a cement one, particularly when workers are standing for long periods.
My question is, why does this make a difference?, how does this alter the situation to affect the low back?
The model I propose about protective responses leading to hypomobility notwithstanding, I'm somewhat mystified about the mechanism of threat in this case.
Rather than open up a box where we share experiences in relation to better floors, I'm hoping to better understand the cause /effect situation. Anyone like to offer a model wich may explain the biomechanics of the effect of cold hard floors ? All thoughts very welcome as always.
Cheers
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 7, 2005 2:05:00 PM
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drbuddy
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Good question. I was taught that it was due to forces transmitted to the spine from the hard floors versus better shock absorption with rubber mats.
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 7, 2005 5:03:00 PM
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ginger
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Fair comment buddy, I guess this would be the response most would feel as the one we were taught. I do see a difference though in the situation when individuals are standing still for long periods. In these static periods , it seems that cold hard floors have a negative impact too.
Just dunno why.
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Ubi est mea anaticula cumminosa?
The Grand Pediculator
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 7, 2005 6:28:00 PM
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Diane
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If you think about it, rubber flooring is slightly, barely noticeably less stable than hard, therefore requires more dynamic weightbearing from a person standing on it. Similar perhaps to sitting on a round ball versus sitting on an office chair, the body must make more effort to stay balanced even if the individual adapts and doesn't notice. Theoretically a greater number of small, barely noticeable but still dynamic movement corrections will spread the weightbearing load about the system better/ more frequently, keep the nervous system from stagnating functionally, and slide it about within the connective tissue more frequently, however minutely. Motion is lotion.
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 1:42:00 AM
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eam
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I think this a probably a re-hash of the above; but how about decreased movement from less shock absorption and force dissipation from hard surfaces? I am also thinking about forces "responding back"-something like a force equal and opposite to the force imposed upon an object. You stand on a hard surface-impose a "force" the force does not re-transmit or resond back b/c of the hard surface and gets re-transmitted up through your spine.
Erica
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 4:00:00 AM
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Barrett
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If thirty workers all walk on the same floor and far fewer than thirty end up with backache (and I presume that this is commonly the case) maybe we ought to consider a factor aside from biomechanics.
What physiologic state is more commonly associated with those workers that develope backache in this environment?
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 4:59:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Barrett, it is the posture, right? They need to strengthen their abs, do a chin-tuck, suck in the stomach, wear Nikes, and bingo- problem solved! It's all posture....
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 5:07:00 AM
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Barrett
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Sebastian,
Yes, of course-that's it. End of discussion.
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 5:21:00 AM
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Shill
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To quote Spike Lee from the late 80's, "Its gotta be the shoes". But seriously folks, IF the floor is a problem, would its effects not be lessened by cushiony shoes? Shoes cost less than new floors. Its a less expensive means of seeing if the surface/impact/mechanical compression issue has anything to do with this incidence of LBP.
We will always wonder why some people can get away with this stuff, and others cant, and I think we need to start taking a good long look at the people who dont hurt. Both physically and mentally.
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Steve Hill PT
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 5:26:00 AM
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Barrett
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Steve,
Remember that thing I said about adaptive potential? Think that might play a role here?
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 8:57:00 AM
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Randy Dixon
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My answer was almost exactly the same as Diane's. It somehow mysteriously vanished. I doubt it could be a result of my actions, like forgetting to hit the "add reply" button.
Adaptive potentials differ, but if rubber flooring presents fewer backaches than hard flooring with matched populations then I'm not sure how that gives us any answers.
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 12:17:00 PM
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SJBird55
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ginger, most expensive show horses that spend the majority of their time in a 12' x 12' stall have 3/4" to 1" rubber stall mats on the floor that they stand. In case you're wondering, there are holes in that type of rubberized flooring system to allow wet substances to go under the mat. The supposed reason for stall mats is for the shock absorption capability of the rubber - supposedly reduces pain, lower extremity strain and improves performance for horses. Horses spend more time on their feet than anything else in a day or night (and they sleep standing up). They do lie down, but it's only for a short period of time when considering a full 24 hour in a day.
Not to shoot a hole in the theory of a mat being a dynamic surface, but there generally isn't a lot of compressionability (isn't that the k value) of the rubberized mats I've seen. For example, the foams with memory cells that compress and then return to the original position after pressure is removed would probably be a much more dynamic surface than any rubberized mat I've seen.
Maybe Shill has a point with the "mental" aspect. Maybe there is a combination of reasons that there might be fewer backaches with rubber flooring - maybe the shock absorption qualities combined with the simple fact that the employee feels valued by the employer?
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 12:26:00 PM
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nari
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Barrett
To answer your question - an abnormal neurodynamic, but tell that to the biomechanics...
An example of rubber mats vs solid concrete - even a rigid rubber mat, very thin with no apparent 'give' on 'palpation' makes a difference.
It does have a grid in it, about 0.2 cm high, so I suspect that makes the difference - a slight pertubation can result in a cascade of change. The 'pea under the mattress' phenomenon...?
The best way to treat your body when active and/or running is to do it in bare feet; this has been propounded on an evolutionary basis for some years.
The podiatrists say that running in shoes causes us to strike the ground with the heel,(high impact)whereas moving fast in bare feet results in more of the forefoot coming into play and greater distribution of forces.
Trouble is, we have become totally reliant on shoes in the civilised world, so that doesn't work anymore. But standing in bare feet on concrete might be interesting - given the sudden exposure to useful stimuli between the receptors and the ground...but could be hazardous in many occupations.
Difficult one to answer.
Nari
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 12:36:00 PM
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SJBird55
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Well, and that exposure to something crushing a foot... that'd be really useful too. Crush injuries are interesting. I bet the backache would go away and then there'd just be foot pain.
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 1:44:00 PM
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ginger
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Thanks everyone for the thoughtfull replies, I don't believe tbe effect of a hard floor is all physical either, as several have suggested. I'm fond of Dianne's idea about motion and feedback as well.
I wonder if this could be placed into an evolutionary context . What about if we all carry a certain apprehension about hard surfaces, as do animals.This is because when running or walking the successfull hunter gatherer found soft surfaces less injurious, so a predisposition to avoiding them is now hard wired.
It is clear to the horse loving population( many thanks SJ ) that it is not necessarily the pounding effect of feet( hooves) on surfaces that may see painfull responses with hard floors.
I can imagine a trial where individuals are tricked into thinking the floor is soft would be interesting.
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The Grand Pediculator
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 4:25:00 PM
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nari
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...or even more interesting, would be to tell individuals that this is a special type of concrete with 'give' in it and they will not get backache if they stand on it...?
Nari
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 11:39:00 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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I do believe (in all seriousness now) that adaptive potential IS a big factor here. Adaptive potential is IMO affected (increased/decreased) by the cerebral aspect of expectation. Also, maybe the awareness of a rubber floor affects the way some bodies/persons move - the proprioceptive feedback makes them move more in a subtle way? And maybe some are "deaf" to that feedback?
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 8, 2005 11:57:00 PM
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Barrett
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Adaptive potential is mediated by the autonomic nervous system; high sympathetic tone=decreased adaptive potential.
The fear some here describe relates directly to that and will decrease anyone's tolerance for mechanical deformation. A sensitive system such as this can experience pain without much mechanical provocation. I think what's important to remember is that hard floors are also commonly cold-so are some workers. Anybody ever ask those who hurt more often than the person beside them whether or not they're often cold?
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Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 9, 2005 1:32:00 AM
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Shill
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Barrett,
I agree fully with the adaptive potential. What are the characteristics of someone with a high adaptive potential? Sure, it seems like they would be doing nearly the opposite of someone with a low adaptive potential, but if we were to observe 5 people who fall into each category, moving within the same room for a set amount of time, what do you suppose we would see?
I also still think soft floors are superior to hard ones. Its not biomechanics, its physics. Perhaps Nicole Matoushek has something to say in this regard. But, I think of the example from the world of track and field. Run around an asphalt track, then one that combines ashphalt and ground up tires. Which one do you like best?
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Steve Hill PT
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Re: hard floors and backache , what's the connection? - November 9, 2005 1:41:00 AM
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Barrett
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Steve,
I'm not sure you'd "see" much. You could palpate it or you could look at the posture of the hips while the subject was supine. Both are unusual ways to observe others. Hasn't poker taught us how much can't be observed despite the rise in sympathetic tone the circumstances dictate?
I watched Chris Ferguson win an amazing hand in some poker tournament a couple of months ago and considered writing a piece titled "Jesus' Posture" about it, but the writing remains in my head still. One day it will come out. Maybe today.
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Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
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