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a PT salary can not be low right... ?
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a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 1, 2005 3:55:00 PM
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Nef
Posts: 17
Joined: July 31, 2005
From: Brooklyn, NY
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I apologize for cluttering the board with salary questions but there seems to be a discrepancy for me with the salaries shown on job sites (salary.com, monster.com) plus people around me raving about physical therapy... and people on the internet with comments such as "you do not go into physical therapy with financial goals a priority" Salary.com tells me the median salary for PT was $70,000 (I'm in NYC) and I know of people that are able to work in two different offices and make over $100,000. Then there are people on the internet telling me you will not make much money and being a registered nurse is equivelent to being a physical therapist (in terms of pay).. So I am wondering if all that is false..the ability to make up to 100 grand easily and a starting salary of over 50? I am sorry once again but.. thank you :)
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 1, 2005 4:28:00 PM
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MinnDasota
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From: NYC
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I live in NYC also and unless you own your own private practice, you are likely to make a humble 45-65K without much deviation past that. And if you add the cost of schooling these days....it just isn't lucrative. Each practice is different (setting, patient type, etc) and 70K seems a bit on the high end, even in NYC. Of the 3 practices I work at (btw, I am not a PT, but I will be a student PT this fall), only the practice owners and maybe 1 or 2 PTs might make over 65K. The number 100K is a little far-fetched for most PT's, but by no means impossible. Probably can be acheived by a lot of home health care, full-time staff work, teaching (if you have a PhD)....basically all work and no play. Now, since I am not a PT yet, this is all from what I have come into contact with and partly from opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of PT's on this board that have a much better idea than me....
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 1, 2005 5:55:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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Personally, I think that the PT salary will increase as the APTA grows stronger. The biggest problem I see is the weakness of the APTA and it's low membership numbers from PT's. The APTA is well respected in Washington but they don't have the money other professional associations have for their lobbying efforts. Sadly, it's not the services a profession provides that makes a profession strive, but how strong their national association is and how well they lobby. For example, look at DC's, their national association is much stronger (more money and extremely effective at lobbying efforts) than the APTA and they get reimbursed more for a lower quality service. Yes, despite our opinions of MOST DC's, they are seen as doctors in Washington. Yes, DPT will help b/c the title "Doctor" means more on the lobbying level. "Doctors" will be more effective than "Master's"/"Bachelor's" in Washington. Experience level means nothing to the people in Washington, I don't care how one argues that point. Do you think bachelor/master level chiropractors would be as effective in Washington compared to the Doctor of Chiropractic. Of course not. When the PT field has the priveledges that DC's have, then we will boom. For all the crap I hear about DC's, they are rated in the top 25 professions and their average pay is close to $100,000. Their services are miniscule compared to what a PT provides--they are just really good at lobbying efforts. I guarantee that if all PT's/DPT's were members and paid their dues to give the APTA more money and lobbying power, then the profession would boom overnight. The chair of our DPT program is very active in Washington and urges all PT's to be members of the APTA to influence Washington. Take home point--It's all about Washington. Convince Washington with $$$ and member numbers and you will have an increased salary. I do believe this will happen in the next 10-15 years as the APTA becomes stronger with DPT numbers and money. After all, for a profession to be truly autonomous, you must have a national organization speaking for you in Washington.
Mark
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 1, 2005 6:15:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
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Mark,
I think you are partly right but I think you are missing a big piece of the puzzle. Most DC's don't depend on Medicare or insurance for their pay. The patient pays for it. Almost all PT's depend on third party payors. That is the big difference. A PT's salary can only be so much becuase there has to be a big enough profit potential left for the business owner, and most PT's are employees, not owners.
Direct Access and the DPT are big issues in the PT world, but outside of it they don't make much difference. It is practice patterns that determine pay.
55K starting is about average I think for a new grad., not too bad, a teacher with a Master's makes 31K where I live. The problem is that if you stay on as an employee the scale tops out quickly. This forces many PT's to go into management, where they may not really want to go. Where I live the scale is quite a bit higher also, PT's make around 75K with some making over 90K as staff therapists (They're going to have to accept pay cuts soon though)
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 1, 2005 6:39:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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Randy,
I certainly see your point. How did DC's get direct access in the first place? Effective lobbying in Washington. Is it not in government where direct access laws are made? If PT's get full direct access and autonimity, then we can go down the street, open a clinic and accept cash patients just like DC's without ANY limitations, whether medicare or insurance pays for it or not. For PT's to get patients to pay for PT out of pocket, like DC's, then laws must be passed without restrictions. This requires effective lobbying and membership numbers, and I do believe the "Doctor" thing will help push it over the hill. DC's make more money than PT's generally speaking, and it all started in Washington. The issue here is salary, and I do think the DPT "Doctor" and direct access are key elements to the rise in pay. Medicare and third party payers aren't fully responsible for a rise in PT salary, but direct access means full access meaning full pay to PT's, finally paying PT's what they really deserve. In chiropractic, patients have a choice so DC's get paid more--laws permit it. In PT, they really don't have a choice right now--laws forbid it.
I'm getting tired and am on my to the sack, so sorry if my words are starting to scramble.
Good night and thanks for the post.
Mark
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 1, 2005 10:39:00 PM
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lekar
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During my volunteer work at a few private physical therapy facilities in Texas last year, I saw many new graduates employed by these facilities and their starting salaries were at least $52,000. I've heard from some PTs that it's even higher in northern states.
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 2, 2005 5:05:00 AM
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AllenB
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What states allow Direct Access right now? I could probably find it after searching the APTA website but I have an idea that someone on this board knows right where I can find that data.
Also, and I may start this on the main board, share some ideas as to how the PT profession can start getting more PTs involved in the APTA.
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 2, 2005 5:47:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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AllenB-
The APTA's site has it, not sure exactly.
Mark-
Whoa, there, ease up on the DCs. They have done a better job managing their professional autonomy, but before you think that they all make lots of money, consider that it has the highest student loan default rate of any health profession, and that there are many loan programs that do not lend for attendance at chiro school, hence the Chiroloan program.
Don't get mad at the chiros for pursuing autonomy and legislation so well, they're just looking out for themselves, as we all are. We are just slow learners in that area.
They have quite a bit of financial problems, especially new grads in the chiro field, check out:
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=outlook&action=display&thread=1097760950
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=outlook&action=display&thread=1112460338
http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/loan.html
Randy is right, reimbursement is a varied thing depending on practice area and MANY other factors.
Look, folks, there are few professions where your degree automatically equals a certain remuneration. It all has to do with location, practice area, job skills, expertise, reimbursement methods, etc, etc.
You can find jobs from 50K to 150K in this field. It all depends on where you go, how good you are, and what you do. Like any other job.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 2, 2005 6:14:00 AM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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Jason,
I don't mean to be negative about DC's. All I'm saying is that they are more effective at the lobbying elements compared to PT's. As far as practice, should of said it differently. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Mark
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 2, 2005 6:40:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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From: USA
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No prob, Mark, don't worry. :)
I'm not the moderator, dude, it's no big deal.
I just think that we can learn far more from them on the legislative front if we are well informed about exactly what the situation is. Often, our impressions of other groups are colored by our personal experiences.
For example, I had a DC as a guest lecturer in PT school, and thought they were like us, except learned more manipulative care and more diff dx. Imagine my surprise when I learned otherwise. But that's what I mean about getting informed.
I think they probably have a wider variance in income (the new grads have it worse than we do, the established ones do much better than us overall) than we do as a group, but I'm not sure.
I think they are smarter about knowing that the degree is only an entry into a field, after which they can work to get what they want, instead of seeing it as a meal ticket to some guaranteed hospital job and X amount of money per year, as many PTs see it.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 2, 2005 9:30:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Another thought on the salary issue- another therapist once pointed out that in our current health care system, the more you touch your patients, the less you get paid.
Interesting...
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 2, 2005 9:59:00 AM
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drbuddy
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Note on the default rate. If you check into it more, you'll see that the majority of defaults seem to have occurred in the mid to late 80's. Most of those defaults also came from the "straight" or more philosophically related schools.
Also, you need to consider a few other aspects of chiropractic. Until recently, with the greater availability of associate positions (albeit mostly crappy), chiros coming out of school were forced to go into solo practice. This set up many chiros for failure as #1 chiro education lacked and still lacks a good background in business and #2 the failure rate for small businesses of any kind is pretty high.
So, put those two together and you have a lot of chiro grads with businesses going belly up leaving them unable to pay back their loans. Then, on top of that, you have the chiros from the straight schools graduating and finding that they had smoke blown up their ass for 4 years and their practice experiences nowhere near what they were told. This makes it even harder for them to make their business work or deal with working as an associate for some whacky chiro.
To illustrate my point, take 100 DPT grads straight out of school, make them find a suitable location, and have them apply for a start up loan. Then, assuming they get approved, have them start their own practice from scratch being responsible for patient care, marketing, day to day operations, and managing cash flow. After a year or so of paying for overhead and business loan repayments, throw in an extra $1000 a month to pay back their school loan. I wonder how many of them would make it. Hell, I'd like to see how many skilled MDs would make it through that.
If that isnt enough yet, throw in the fact that most chiro schools will accept anyone with a C average or better (back in the 80's at least). Now you have all of those factors mentioned above, plus a large portion of those were underachievers in the first place! I'd be suprised if we didnt have the highest loan default rates.
By the way, I have never heard of a chiroloan. That must be before my time and I dont think they use those anymore.
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 2, 2005 10:22:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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I had heard Chiroloan was a program set up just for chiro students.
Here it is, if you're interested:
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/14/09/21.html
The admissions requirements haven't changed, they are generally low, here's from an article in JMPT in 1997:
http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html
I agree that setting new grads loose to fail is a prescription for failure and poor student loan rates.
Perhaps that's why no one else does it.
:)
It seems a good way to cut down on competition for existing practitioners, when utilization rates are low and times are tough:
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=outlook&action=display&thread=111046614
Doesn't seem very professional or fair to the new grads, though.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 3, 2005 6:34:00 AM
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ehanso
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From: Minnesota
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PT salaries will increase only when the education bureaucrats begin to think outside the box (yeah right) and begin to teach independence, business basics, how to deal with insurance companies and how to hire and train staff. Until the people who have the greatest influence on the students wake up, we will continue to be mostly employees trained to settle for whatever crumbs are thrown our way.
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 3, 2005 7:08:00 AM
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drbuddy
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Then again, non of our salries will go up until we can get the insurance industry to straighten out their act and keep them from stong arming politicians. If hosptals and clinics are getting reimbursed less and less, no raise for the PTs that work there. Also, you can be independant all you want, but reimbursement wont be any better.
The only solution as I see it is dealing with the insurance companies. Premiums go up, yet their payments to docs and therapists stay the same or decrease.
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 3, 2005 2:06:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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I think it absolutely blows for current and upcoming grads. You really have to feel for them, higher debt and stale pay increases.
I think most has LESS to do with the APTA (as previously mentioned) and more to do with reimbursement based upon medicare calculations.
In the early 90's, the cash was flowing...and it had ZERO to do with the APTA or degree level. It had everything to do with the reimbursement structure. EVERYBODY in health care made alot of money.
Clinton came, insurance restructured, medicare restructured, hospitals failed...and it all changed.
Now, much of reimbursement is directly correlated to demand (see the higher wages of nurses, radiologists, surgical PA's, etc).
The issue with demand saw a direct impact on PT in 95-99 when PT schools flooded the market right as reimbursement went down. Bad moves...
By the way, DC's didn't get "direct access" by lobbying in Washington, they were part of the landscape at the turn of the century and were ingrained in the system. They became PART of the system as PT has tried to fight its way into the club...it really is more of a state to state battle not a Washington battle.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - August 9, 2005 10:31:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Good points, Wags...
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - September 8, 2005 4:11:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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The APTA website has current demographics, work area, and salary data from 2002.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - September 8, 2005 4:09:00 PM
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jma
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Guess they don't update things yearly.
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Re: a PT salary can not be low right... ? - September 8, 2005 6:43:00 PM
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TLB
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[QUOTE] Guess they don't update things yearly. [/QUOTE]Sad but true, the APTA has better things to do and I hope you support them financially. If not, there's no reason to complain. I know that in Texas and Arizona starting salaries are very good for an OP therapist. Where talking about 65K to start in an OP clinic and less to work in a hospital. I know a PT with 10 years experience and an ATC who runs a corporate clinic and makes around 68k and she's hiring PT's fresh out of school for 65k (she's a bit pissed about that). As an independent therapist I think that's great and I hope it continiues. You can make a difference, but only if your with us!
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Todd
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