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What CAN one call this?
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What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 8:06:41 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Here are some quotes from people who have taken the courses and seen a DVD-interview with John Barnes:
quote:
"John is truly multi-dimensional. I have taken most of John's Myofascial Release seminars and I am aware of the power he projects. I have also been treated by him. His gentle strength helped me so much. I thought that I knew him. Then I watched the Fireside Chat DVD and was astonished to discover an even deeper dimension, his 'essence', the quiet power and wisdom that fuels his stage presence and therapeutic artistry."
"It felt like I was right in John's home and he was talking directly to me. It was so cozy and warm with a fire crackling directly behind him in a beautiful stone fireplace. John was speaking from his heart and I just wanted to curl up and become lost in this fascinating experience."
"The setting and experience was so intimate and informative."
"What a wonderful experience. I could sense the wisdom flowing through John. He calmly and clearly helped me understand the Myofascial principles and philosophy on a much deeper level."
The adoration of a group of students? How does this come across? This has little to do with the message, and much more with the messenger.
"Power he projects", "Deeper dimension", "essence", "stage presence" (there is a good one!), "wisdom flowing". These are all statements depicting someone other than a physical therapy course conductor - but what can I call him? What does this look like?
What do you think?
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 8:24:20 AM
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PTupdate.com
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I've always been impressed with the advertising side of his whole program. He does a great job of invoking a southwestern US Indian-shaman-mystical image.......the leather vest with fringes and his big paw being held out in space is a great picture. The old ones with him gently touching and working on someones neck was pretty good as well. My wife is a massge therapist, so this stuff is published in her magazines. It's a teddy bear image that seemed to benefit papa Hemingway, and even Garcia as well
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 8:51:18 AM
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Diane
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What exactly is a presentation that looks like that/is described in such a manner supposed to appeal to, in potential workshop participants?
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 8:57:09 AM
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TexasOrtho
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If it aint' broke don't fix it. It apparently has been a marketing recipe that has worked for Barnes' for umpteen years. The bigger question in my mind is how/why educated minds continue the buy-in. The fact that enough PT's are out their demanding Barnes' courses is more concerning for me. Where is the breakdown in reasoning? The fact that MFR vernacular has become so prolific in academia and clinical practice makes it a tough bug to squash.
I still maintain there is something about what MF'ers do that is beneficial, BUT the theory should be put through the ringer more rigorously before we follow Moses through the parted waters.
< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- August 26, 2008 9:09:13 AM >
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 10:56:12 AM
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JSPT
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quote:
The bigger question in my mind is how/why educated minds continue the buy-in.
Because people are emotional, and gurus milk that appeal for all its worth. Yes, its confounding to see educated people be sucked in. Who wouldn't want an easy method that works for everything? The truth is always more difficult to understand and takes more work to apply.
The only thing you can do is call Bull#*$) when you see it, and try to plant a few seeds in a mind looking for another way of doing things.
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 2:03:56 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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To expand a bit on this subject:
here is a glimpse of one of the pages of the much-touted book by JFB himself Healing Ancient Wounds: The Renegade's Wisdom(what appears to be a self-promoting psychobabble mix to me). If you can make it to the end without getting nauseated, check out the reviews at amazon.com for this book. They will show you quite eloquently the level of gullibility of the professionals praising it.
Disclaimer: this was publicly posted on amazon.com:
quote:
A lightning bolt of pain ripped through my body! I lay there stunned. It seemed I had slipped into another level of consciousness...a very deep level. It felt like a time warp...a timeless, space-less dimension....floating and soaring, and then a sense of flow. I felt like I was out of my body. Gradually I became aware of my body, but only the upper half, as if there were no lower half. Then I seemed to slip into another deeper dimension of consciousness, or did it slip into me?
A voice with great authority and wisdom came thundering through me.
You must bring your awareness back into your body now!
“Why” I asked?
You will need all of your awareness, willpower, and courage to handle the responsibilities that lie before you.
“What responsibilities?” I asked.
They will unfold.
“I can’t feel my legs.”
Move them!
“I can’t.”
You must focus! This trauma that has just happened to you was initiated eons ago and is now being manifested in your life.
“My legs feel numb.”
copyright John F. Barnes
This was the "ancient warrior" making his appearance "through" John himself.....
Now, my question still stands: what do we call this man, and his "therapy", since we can not possibly equate his position or status with that of a cult leader or a quack, since that would be libellous or slanderous - and we wouldn't want to do that now, would we?
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 4:50:34 PM
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eric2806
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I would like to know more about this.
thanks
Regards,
Eric Jonhson.
Georgia Alcohol Addiction Treatment
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 8:22:04 PM
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TexasOrtho
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Again. I think he's got enough rope to hang himself...lots of rope from the looks of it. I honestly don't know what to say other than deconstructing the "ideas" he spouts shouldn't be a monumental task. I don't see him any different than any other faith healer. There is no legal or formal means of censuring this man, so we just need to move past this.
The only effective means of dealing with Barnes and other faith healers is marginalization through education. He won't go away, but we can help him become less significant through deconstructing his ideas. People who read the discussion will tell two friends...and their friends will tell their friends...and so on down the line. Expressing outrage that the statements are outlandish only gets us so far. Eventually we have to do something other than bitch about what he says.
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 8:30:07 PM
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Kaden
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Rod,
I agree there is little we can do about it as you said there is no legal way to censure him. However, I wish our professional organization would attempt to do something about him spewing all of this while using the PT initials to bring some credibility to his approach.
People have the right to believe/teach/feel and buy into what they want. It is the advertising of these services as PT that bothers me the most. Would many of us feel as strongly against his approach if he were not allowed to promote it as physical therapy; I doubt it. We may not like his approach, but if he seperated his techniques from physical therapy then I think we could all agree to move on.... sort of.
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 9:36:07 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Rod, I am putting all these items here for people to see; there are those who haven't had a "chance" to see some of his stuff - now they can cringe that our "peers" continue to take his courses.
I talk about the b*llsh*t therapies in our world ALL the time. With patients, doctors, insurance agents, AND colleagues. All in a science oriented fashion.
My outrage comes out when reviewing some of what the originator of this "technique" produces. And it is VERY obvious that he hasn't "hung himself" - this stuff from his book is from 2000!!
I agree with Kaden - JFB besmirches our profession with his what I choose to call nonsense (being in a kind and forgiving mood - must be my "ancient sage" speaking through me...my "ancient warrior" is sleeping). The more I can get the stuff he writes and teaches out here in the harsh light of logic, science and scepticism, the bigger the chance that "my" profession will become better. Google hits for instance....
I am in Canada - all I can do is continue to e-mail to our Ontario and our National Association with requests to remove CEU for these courses. They're slow moving beasts.....and his ads are big....
Rod, you do not have to partake in this thread, you know. Really. It is ok to just skip if it gets too repetitive for ya. 
< Message edited by Sebastian Asselbergs -- August 26, 2008 9:40:18 PM >
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Mundi vult decipi
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 10:01:44 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Another absolute GEM: (I can not help myself - it is so much fun to see a blown-up ego poke himself to deflation)
from the MFR website:
quote:
"John F. Barnes, PT, world -renowned therapist, author, visionary, and authority on Myofascial Release, considered to be one of the most impressively talented therapists of our time, his mastery of Myofascial Release, teaching, and healing are beyond comprehension."
I love the "world-renowned" and the "authority" - on something he slung together himself! LOL.
And just so you can really get its impact: his mastery of Myofascial Release, teaching, and healing are beyond comprehension. ....beyond comprehension....
This stuff is better and more "out there" than that of his namesake - the good SF writer John Barnes.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 10:09:46 PM
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TexasOrtho
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quote:
Rod, you do not have to partake in this thread, you know. Really. It is ok to just skip if it gets too repetitive for ya.
Stop picking on me Bas. We aren't face to face so you can't see me turning the other cheek.
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 26, 2008 10:30:57 PM
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rwillcott
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Rod is right in saying that the only effective approach is to deconstruct MFR. This will clearly demonstrate that it is an alternative technique with no scientific basis. Therefore, it is not a part of PT.
I get frustrated when I see a study that gets press indicating that PT is no more effective than GP advice in the treatment of LBP. We all know that this is a poor study. However, the public does not. In the mean time the public is lead to beleive that MFR is effective. Go figure.
Perhaps revealing to the public the lack of science supporting MFR is a start.
Sebastian makes a good point as well. These ads for MFR should be removed from National Association publications such as the CPA and APTA. It gives the public and sadly our profession the impression that this is an evidence based treatment.
Also, if we as professionals could come up with a nice brief article outiling our points and approach insurance companies to remove this as a reimbursable PT treatment. It is a technique that should not be covered under private insurance in my opinion. A PT can still perform MFR, however the patient must pay out of pocket.
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 27, 2008 6:56:52 AM
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SJBird55
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That's one thing that I don't get... is money received via advertisements within APTA publications really so important that the effect of the advertisement on the profession isn't considered?
rwillcott... it would be difficult to have MFR removed as a reimbursable PT intervention. In the States, MFR would be billed under manual therapy 97140 - anything manual falls into that category. The only way to remove it as being reimbursable would be to state that it would not be reimbursed and in the event of an audit, if documentation reflected MFR, money would need to be returned AND the insurance company would mathematically estimate the use of MFR based on a audit of X amount of charts and propogate that estimate out to the number of patients treated with that particular payor to capture money. I do believe it would be time consuming and costly to audit in that manner. Technically, one can get around even calling the intervention MFR and could have vague documentation stating "soft tissue mobilization."
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 27, 2008 7:05:29 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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In addition to the points SJ makes about billing issues in the States, it is virtually impossible to "outlaw" MFR "techniques". They are not a discrete and unique hands-on technique.
It is the "luggage" of this manual approach that needs being sent to Heathrow Airport, London, England - to disappear with some of my luggage - forever.
The actual manual techniques may well have significant effects - so we really can't eliminate them from the options a therapist uses - renaming them, cleaning up the explanation and fringe-crap around them is necessary. In other words, remove the stuff that seems to be SO attractive to a certain - large - group of practitioners.....I would get in trouble if I would call them cult-followers, so I won't.
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Mundi vult decipi
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 27, 2008 8:58:08 AM
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Diane
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Bas, you are a funny man.
Other places the "luggage" could be sent:
1. Outer space
2. Deep in a landfill to compost
3. If it won't compost, an incinerator.
Changing the "focal length" on which "tissue" people think is actually the "responsive" one, would definitely help. Then it would be sooooooo much easier for people to get rid of the name, and all the (alleged/my opinion only/etc.) cultist flavor of the thing. It would collapse under its own weight, at least in PT.
Of course, that's no easy task. It would require nothing short of a neurobiologic revolution in thinking... WHOOOOPS! we already have HAD that!! We must have been in the twilight zone this whole time.
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 27, 2008 2:25:24 PM
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bonez
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Since this appears unremovable under the present system could you not try to attack it from a different direction? Can you not find consensus from the school level that as presented this approach does not fit our paradigm? Once education finally signs off then continuing ed would have to follow suit. Forget about the payors and go after the audience first.
Since this appears to belong on the fringe then force it way out there.
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 27, 2008 5:03:25 PM
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jesspt
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From: Illinois
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Bonez,
I can tell you that the MFR approach was universally derided at my graduate school. I can only assume that it is treated similarly at MOST PT schools (U of Miami being a recently notable exception). I'm not convinced it's the way that didactic education programs treat MFR that leads to all of the lemmings throwing down their hard earned cash to attend this guru driven mess.
_____________________________
Jess Brown, PT
Board Certified in Orthopaedic Physical Therapy
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RE: What CAN one call this? - August 27, 2008 6:18:23 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Thanks Diane. Come to think of it - there is ALWAYS hope that the BS-luggage of MFR will actually contract into a singularity and pop into a new dimension - creating a black micro-hole in the tiny part of "that" brain where MFR was born; effectively cauterizing itself. One can only hope.
Jess, you may well be right.
It is probably an effect of the consumerism and materialism of the western world, that so many are drawn to more esoteric (love, spirit, deeper self, energy) concepts. It must fullfill a "missing" part in their daily and professional life. No matter how snake-oily it actually IS.
The so-called respectability it has gained, is purely due to the numbers of poor lambs who have taken the courses. The marketing is pure genius and "a sucker is born every minute".
Removing the availability of CEUs for taking these courses is a good first step. Hence my communication with the Associations. The more who do this, the better. And please include some of the really bad "science" of MFR and the really "poor assumptions" - heck, throw in a quote or three of Branes himself: that would make a monk swear! But contact your association/professional representatives. Again and again.
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Mundi vult decipi
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