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Training torso rotation
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Training torso rotation - December 14, 2005 5:56:00 AM
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SPORT-Rx
Posts: 9
Joined: March 6, 2005
From: Boston, MA
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I am interested in other's opinion on training the torso with rotation, specifically with resistance.
Some (Cook, Boyle) advocate torso resistance training without allowing rotation (resisting rotation). If the rationale is to protect the spine, can't this safely be performed by allowing the hips to rotate to spare the lumbar spine of potential unsafe stresses?
Dan
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Dan McGovern PT,DPT,SCS,ATC,CSCS
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Re: Training torso rotation - December 14, 2005 7:42:00 AM
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Shill
Posts: 1098
Joined: February 13, 2003
From: Madison WI USA
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Dan,
I think you can be safe rotating away, provided that it isnt done with spine flexion and load, especially in a healthy population without current LBP. The Lumbar spine, as you know, really doesnt rotate much anyway, and for sports performance, one should rarely be in a position of substantial trunk flexion while trying to develop any great rotational torque. (Sure the golf swing is an exception, but it is not impossible to brace with the paraspinals to prevent a lot of stress on the lowest segments.) Seems to me that the hips provide a great deal of the work, with the remainder of the rotation coming from the upper lumbar and thoracic spine, while the lower spine stays relatively lordotic, a position of optimal strength, stability and load distribution.
My opinion,
Steve
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Steve Hill PT
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Re: Training torso rotation - December 14, 2005 10:05:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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From: USA
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Dan-
We should listen to Steve. Nice post, steve, great summary. :)
I think that Boyle/Cook do provide sensible rehabilitation and performance progressions for athletes, and I use them in my personal program and with patients, for what that's worth to you.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Training torso rotation - December 16, 2005 3:53:00 AM
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SPORT-Rx
Posts: 9
Joined: March 6, 2005
From: Boston, MA
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Steve (and others):
"you can be safe rotating away, provided that it isnt done with spine flexion and load"
Regarding load:
1.Do you consider standing a load for the spine?
2.Are external loads of Med balls, pulleys, tubing considered safe?
Regarding flexion:
1.Gray and Santana advocate training the torso in multiplanes of motion (flexion / rotation).
I look forward to other's insight and opinions.
Dan
_____________________________
Dan McGovern PT,DPT,SCS,ATC,CSCS
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Re: Training torso rotation - December 16, 2005 6:15:00 AM
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Shill
Posts: 1098
Joined: February 13, 2003
From: Madison WI USA
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Dan,
Good question. Standing is load. However, what I meant was standing holding weight, and twisting while flexing. That to me seems like not such a good idea.
Healthy folks, not those with current spine injury, can probably get away with this without any problem. Does it lead to problem? Hard to say. We know that flexion and rotation episodes lead to a whole lot of episodes of LBP. But, can we predict in whom this will occur? No.
Lots of people get away with this each and every day without developing any LBP. And of course this screws up our ability to say we should or shouldnt do it.
So, as unhelpful as that may be, one could draw the conclusion of lets see how it goes, or, we could get a bit cautious and not do it. I think that if we live in fear that we might cause a problem, (with reasonable practices) we are making a mistake. However, squatting and twisting while hoisting Volkswagons is probably not a reasonable practice.
So Dan,
Why do you ask? Is it just curiosity?
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Steve Hill PT
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Re: Training torso rotation - December 16, 2005 2:34:00 PM
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connie.pt
Posts: 76
Joined: March 28, 2005
From: Michigan
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Both the discs and the facet joints of the lumbar spine limit rotation by thier structure. So if you are rotating through the lumbar spine, this will place stress on these structures. So if a person has a lumbar problem already, why would you want to place unneeded stress on them? And why would you want to create that kind of environment for a healthy spine? Flexion with rotation will compress the facets and place further shearing stresses on the disc (very bad idea).
Resistance training against rotation will provide very good training for the multifidus, which according to Hides, Hodges, Jull & Richardson is one of the main stabilizing muscles of the lumbar spine.
I teach people to rotate where they're supposed to rotate, ie the hips mostly, then whatever they can get through the thoracic.
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Re: Training torso rotation - December 21, 2005 5:03:00 AM
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SPORT-Rx
Posts: 9
Joined: March 6, 2005
From: Boston, MA
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Steve:
My interest is beyond curiosity, but related to direct patient / client care. My current approach is to introduce "rotation" using the Cook / Boyle method. If this is tolerated well, I progress to allowing torso rotation with emphasis on hip and to a lesser extent thoracic mobility. There are some populations (I do alot of work with figure skaters) who require the ability to spin without allowing the torso to rotate.
Many of my clients progress to resisted torso rotation (chops / lifts) with some lumbar flexion and alot of hip/knee flexion. I have had good success with this approach and feel it can safely be used with most people.
I look forward to futher discussion.
Dan
_____________________________
Dan McGovern PT,DPT,SCS,ATC,CSCS
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