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The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVERSITY based as of 2005
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The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVERSIT... - January 14, 2007 9:49:00 AM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
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I have been lurking at this forum for a long time and I felt a need to chip in my two cents regarding this topic. There have been many questions regarding the quality and ultimately the validity of chiropractic education. Unfortunately, there is lack of STANDARDIZATION world wide, (especially in the USA) which is likely why chiropractic has a difficult time in establishing relevant cultural legitimacy in North America.
Hopefully this will change as the DC education model, in Canada, has rejected subluxation theory, embraced EBM approach and has put a premium on research and critical thinking skills as opposed to the dogma which is still pervasive in prior generations (and still taught in 14 of the 17 chiro schools in the US). In Canada, at least, recent and future DC graduates are taught to be NMSK specialists. Nothing less, nothing more.
The following exerpt presents all the evidence, facts regarding chiropractic education in Canada from 2000 to 2005. This was found at, ironically enough, an anti-chiropractic website, that some of you here may belong to. Credit goes to TripleBH for his post at chiro-talk.
[QUOTE]
Again, the facts will prove the case. CMCC is considered in a legal and academic sense, a university. Degree granting status, in Ontario, and for that matter Canada, North America, etc.. is a important. First and foremost, it ensures quality of education that is at the gold standard which is the university level.
The entire premise that CMCC isn't considered a university seems to be based purely on semantics; in such that it is a private institution and not a publically funded university. However, as you will see, CMCC is a considered a university a private one. ALL DEGREE GRANTING INSTITUTIONS IN ONTARIO ARE CONSIDERED TO HAVE MET THE GOLD STANDARD OF EDUCATION WHICH IS UNIVERSITY LEVEL. CMCC is thus considered a PRIVATE UNIVERSITY. The proof? Continue reading (and get out your glasses, pop any ADHD pills, etc.)
The following will provide a historical breakdown of CMCC's path to degree granting status and thus being considered a private university: First the introduction of the Act:
The Post-secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act, 2000.
With the Government’s April 2000 announcement to expand degree-granting institutions in Ontario to include private universities and the colleges through the introduction of applied degrees, degree-granting authority is no longer limited to Ontario’s 17 universities.
The Government’s stated intention is to put in place some new initiatives that will:
• • Provide more opportunities for Ontarians to seek degrees, with a broader choice of fields
of study and locations,
• • Ensure that all degree programs in Ontario offer top-quality education,
• • Protect students at private institutions from the risk of financial loss.
Link:
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:EyA2lLiW0b4J:www.cou.on.ca/content/objects/br2000_privateUniversities.pdf+degree+granting+status+ontario&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&client=safari
More facts:
Institutions in Ontario wishing to offer degrees, or programs leading to degrees, must comply with the Post-secondary Education Choice & Excellence Act 2000 which governs degree-granting Institutions. The Act prevents institutions from granting degrees, providing programs of postsecondary study leading to a degree, or being known as universities, unless they are so authorized by an Act of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario or have the consent of the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities.[/QUOTE]Taken from the Ministry of Education of Ontario's website. This puts the first point above in historical context.
Where CMCC fits in the picture:
CMCC BECOMES THE FIRST INSTITUTION TO OFFER PROFESSIONAL HEALTH CARE DEGREE
Toronto, April 4, 2005 —
The Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College (CMCC) is pleased to announce that The Honourable Mary Anne Chambers, Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities has granted consent to CMCC to offer a Doctor of Chiropractic degree program. The degree program will commence with the class entering in August 2005, pursuant to the Post-secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act, 2000. This Act, for the first time in Ontario, allowed private institutions to apply for degree granting status. CMCC is honoured to become the first private institution in Ontario to be granted the privilege of offering a professional health care degree under this Act.
The evaluation process under the Post-secondary Educational Quality Assurance Board (PEQAB) was rigorous and included a full organizational review, a program quality review, and two site visitations. Degree granting status is recognition of the quality of CMCC’s program. It sets the program within the hierarchy of education in Ontario as comparable to that of other primary contact health care professions, such as medicine, dentistry, and optometry.
(Note these other health professions are all university level education as well)
Links:
http://www.cmcc.ca/Media_Relations.htm#3
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3987/is_200508/ai_n14880377
Another private institution gets degree granting status and creating a new degree in Behavioural Psychology:
St. Lawrence College will be offering its second four-year degree program in fall 2004. The bachelor of applied arts (behavioural psychology) was approved by the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, after meeting demanding criteria established by the Postsecondary Education Quality Assessment Board.
The Bachelor’s degree in Behavioural Psychology is the first of its kind in Canada and solidifies the leadership position St. Lawrence College established when it launched the Behavioural Science Technology diploma program in 1971.
Link:
http://www.studyincanada.com/english/news/pressrls.asp?ID=373
Again, to reiterate, private institutions such as CMCC which offer degree programs and in fact considered universities, to be more specific, they are private universities. The ONLY distinction between these a private college/university and an "university" is the PUBLIC FUNDING.
Finally, the tired premise that chiropractic education at CMCC and other university or university equivalent (i.e. private degree granting institution) does not involve the frontal lobes is should be disproven. However, we should probably take a peek at the curriculum in question. Certain members here question the intellectual acumen or the validity of chiropractic education to begin with. Let's look at the source in question.
Google is so good at finding these tidbits! Here is a link to CMCC's ENTIRE CURRICULUM.
http://cmcc.ca/PDF/2006/CMCC_Calendar06to07.pdf
I found this particularly interesting: Definition of Doctor of Chiropractic (according to CMCC)
A Doctor of Chiropractic is a practitioner concerned, as a member of the healing arts, with the health needs of the public. The chiropractor gives particular attention to the relationship of the structural and neurological aspects of the body in health and disease. He/she is educated in the biological and clinical sciences as well as in related health subjects. The chiropractic programs approved by the Commission on Accreditation of the Council on Chiropractic Education of Canada (CCEC) are dedicated to the purpose of educating competent practitioners.
No mention of subluxations. No primary emphasis on the spine. Just a doctor who is concerned with the structural and neurological aspects of the body. This is consistent with a neuromusculoskeletal doctor. Point being, CMCC education prepares the DC's to be NMSK specialists.
The actual Doctorate of Chiropractic DEGREE program can be seen from pgs 81-120. It gives you a complete look at every single course, with a mini syllabus offered at CMCC. You virtually are dissecting their whole degree at a glance.
General Overview of CMCC DC DEGREE
Doctor of Chiropractic Degree
Program
course requirements
yEar i
AN 1101 Human Anatomy I
PA 1407 Health Promotion
PH 1101 Biochemistry
AC 1101 Basic Body Mechanics
AC 1102 Chiropractic Skills
AC 1103 Introduction to Functional Recovery & Active Therapeutics
CP 1101 Introduction to Chiropractic Principles, Professionalism & Ethics
CD 1301 Introductory Diagnosis & Orthopaedics I
RN 1101 Radiographic Interpretation I
RN 1102 Fundamentals of Radiography
CE 1101 Clinical Practice
RM 1301 Applied Research & Biometrics
The courses are taught within the four modules listed below.
Module Weeks General theme of the Module
1 6 Back and Spine
2 5 Back and Spine
3 8 Head and Neck
4 9 Upper Limb
Contact Hours 853
Grand Rounds 12
Total Hours 865
yEar ii
AN 2101 Human Anatomy II
PA 2201 Pathology
PA 2202 General Microbiology
PA 2204 Immunology
PA 2306 Toxicopharmacology
PH 2204 Systems Physiology
PH 2205 Neuroscience
PH 2206 Nutrition
AC 2203 Clinical Biomechanics
AC 2204 Chiropractic Skills
AC 2205 Functional Recovery & Active Therapeutics
AC 2410 Integrated Chiropractic Practice
CP 2202 Chiropractic Perspectives on Clinical Practice
CD 2301 Introductory Diagnosis & Orthopaedics II
RN 2201 Radiographic Interpretation II
RN 2203 Radiographic Interpretation III
CE 2202 Clinical Practice
The courses are taught within the four modules listed on the following page.
2 • Undergraduate Education
Module Weeks General theme of the Module
5 7 Neurology I
6 5 Neurology II
7 8 Lower Limb and Thorax
8 9 Abdomen and Pelvis
Contact Hours 947
Grand Rounds 12
Total Hours 959
yEar iii
PA 3201 Systems Pathology
PA 3202 Clinical Microbiology
PA 3305 Clinical Laboratory Diagnosis
PH 3407 Clinical Nutrition
AC 3305 Clinical Management
AC 3306 Chiropractic Skills
AC 3307 Auxiliary Chiropractic Therapy
AC 3308 Functional Recovery & Active Therapeutics
CP 3303 Advanced Chiropractic Principles & Applied Ethics
CP 3304 Jurisprudence
CD 3303 Neurodiagnosis
CD 3304 Differential Diagnosis
CD 3305 Diagnosis and Symptomatology
CD 3406 Clinical Psychology
CD 3407 Emergency Care
CD 3408 Child Care
CD 3409 Female Care
CD 3410 Geriatrics
RN 3301 Radiological Technology
RN 3302 Radiographic Interpretation IV
CE 3303 Clinical Practice
The courses are taught within the nine modules listed below.
Module Weeks Focus of the Module
9 4 Acute Onset Low Back Pain
10 4 Thoracic Spine Pain
11 3 Upper Limb Pain
12 4 Lower Limb Pain
13 6 Groin/Hip/Pelvis Pain
14 3 Shoulder Pain
15 5 Neck Pain
16 4 Headache Pain
17 6 Chronic Low Back Pain
Contact Hours 850
Grand Rounds 50
Total Hours 900
Undergraduate Education •
yEar iv
Year IV consists of a twelve month clinical internship year.
Total Hours 1504
CE 4405 Clinical Practice: Internship
CE 4406 Health Care Management
CP 4404 Jurisprudence Project
research Project
In addition to the above course requirements, students must
complete an Undergraduate Student Investigative Project (RM USIP)
prior to graduation.
RM USIP Undergraduate Student Investigative Project 50
Total Program Contact Hours 4278
There it is. All of it. 4250 + hrs. Previous undergrad degree (this gives them 2). A curriculum not based on subluxation chiropactic theory. A research project. Clinical examinations (OSCE's) yearly. A research project by every student.
Chiropractic in Canada is a university education in Canada. As is the case in Australia as in Europe. These are the facts. For whatever reason, some people here choose to ignore these and try to suggest the prefontal lobes aren't used in chiropractic. Give me a break.
Out of curiosity, is there a D.P.T. curriculum out there or maybe an M.D program out there we can compare too? How about a curriculum from an other chiro school (especially a subluxation one).
The bottom line:
We aren't in Kansas anymore. We're not talking about the Chiro-ville USA. We're talking about Chiro-ville Canada. And the times are a changin' . As of 2005, the chiropractic education in Canada, in both official languages, is at the university level. 2 degrees. Just like a dentist. Just like an optometrist. Just like an MD. Just like a PhD. It's an EBM school. Fact. The first private health professional degree in Canada. Fact. It's high time this forum realizes that not all of the chiropractic education is similar. It varies from country to country. The curriculums differ. Their interpretation of DC differs and, accordingly, their role in health care. Students must choose wisely, indeed. Perhaps it's time for patients to choose wisely too. Either way, my original point has been proven. Not every chiropractic institution is the same, some are in the 21st century (EBM schools) and some are still in the 20th (subluxation based). Hopefully the opinions and attitudes here are based on the current information and not outdated (mis)information.
The same advice should apply to prospective students. If you decide on chiropractic as a career, do your research and choose your school wisely.
[/QUOTE]
Hopefully all manual therapists on this board, regardless of professions, embraces EBM, provides the best evidence possible, and ultimately sifts through the politics, posturing and old stereotypes and work together, drawing on each others education and clinical experiences to better appraise, design and implement conservative treatment plans that help our patients get better. Sorry for the lengthy first post; I am looking forward to learning and sharing with all members of this board.
Cheers,
Marc.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 15, 2007 1:56:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1211
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
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Marc, congratulations. Just a small caveat: your title implies that something has changed in the education of chiros in Canada in 2005. It hasn't. Semantics have changed, and possibly perception. But no the actual education or the institute. One can only get a Chiropractic degree at a chiropractic College - not at any other university.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 15, 2007 5:05:00 AM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
Status: offline
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[QUOTE]With the Government’s April 2000 announcement to expand degree-granting institutions in Ontario to include private universities and the colleges through the introduction of applied degrees, degree-granting authority is no longer limited to Ontario’s 17 universities.[/QUOTE]When the "government" of a single province changes the definition of "university" to include privately funded schools and colleges within its definition (privatization of education), it's at best a "legislatedly equivalent" degree, and barely legitimate, not historically academic. What happened here is that the value of a university education became devalued with the stroke of a pen, not that a chiropractic education suddenly became worth something greater than before.
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 15, 2007 1:42:00 PM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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Hi Sebastian
Actually one CAN get a chiropractic degree at a non-private university. The other chiro school in Canada is in UQTR. You might be surprised to that UQTR and CMCC are currently collaborating with University of Toronto, University of Waterloo, University of Laval, University of Calgary amongst others on research projects. Additionally, the UBC recently hired a DC as an professor at the school of Human Kinetics and he's also a the board of research.
Furthermore, chiropractic is university based in Europe and Australia. So, unfortunately, your assertion isn't true. On a personal note, I think you would be quite surprised at the quality and breadth of skills the new and future DC's from EBM schools possess. NMSK complaints are plenty, and I'm sure that there's enough for all manual therapist, DC's, PT's, RMT's, OT's and so on to help out.
Diane:
I'm very aware of your crusade to kill chiropractic and your op-ed pieces here that have no facts or truth to them does not add substance to the debate.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 15, 2007 3:46:00 PM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
Status: offline
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[QUOTE]I'm very aware of your crusade to kill chiropractic and your op-ed pieces here that have no facts or truth to them does not add substance to the debate.[/QUOTE]No, I am against killing, however I'm all for the establishment of chiro-free zones (much like smoking -free zones) that steadily enlarge.
I know you're tired of my op-ed pieces, with common sense to back them, and a predilection for un-spinning pure spin, but you'll have to get used to me as long as you're going to pepper every site on the internet with your "aren't we special/aren't we great, especially in Canada" stuff. All I can think of is that BJ Palmer was a Canadian. I feel slightly burdened about that, obliged to continue on as a result. :D
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 15, 2007 4:56:00 PM
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drbuddy
Posts: 429
Joined: July 30, 2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
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Marc, take what Dfj says with a grain of salt. She tosses plenty of rocks from her glass house filled with unsubstantiated procedures of her own (AKA simple contact or simple touch...whatever they call it).
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 15, 2007 5:22:00 PM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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Diane
You are 100% completely for killing off the chiropractic profession. You also think we're all unethical, cultist bricklayers (your exact quotes). Did I mention that you also think that no DC has EVER helped ANY patient? Let's review my brief history with you:
Let's see here: you're a moderator at an anti-chiropractic website, you try to discredit every chiropractor for being, well a DC, you routine ban and censor any post at soma simple and at chirotalk that presents evidence/argument that refutes your own, you table a petition to stop cervical manipulation and now you want "chiro-free" zones.
In short, your crusade is a personal, vindictive affair that deliberately perpetuates old memes and stereotypes in order to discredit DC's and frighten the general public. Your behaviour is appaling and I won't dignify any more of your garbage, anti-DC posts. I strongly suggest that you refrain from any more professional bashing and stick to the spirit of this board which is share clinical approaches to helping our patients get better.
Marc.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 15, 2007 7:04:00 PM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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Buddy T
It's nice to find a board where she isn't a mod and can't boot me off or censor my posts. It's too bad, she is in fact knowledgeable, but her continuous crusade against all DC's is tiresome. She thinks by moderating a board of ex-chiropractors 95% of who were indoctrinated by a false model and were potentially dangerous practitioners she has some kind of representative sample of the whole, especially new and future grads from university based chiro schools.
Anyways, like I mentioned earlier, if I could have an ignore button, it would be the best for both of us, but I won't hesitate to correct her if/when she crosses the line and perpetuates falsehoods and unsubtantiated innuendo.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 16, 2007 12:20:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1211
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
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Marc, please note that I mentioned "in Canada" - I never talked about the rest of the world. So, my assertion is true - the fact that the chiro institutions cooperate with other universities (much like our local Georgian College does - with degree granting rights) and do research with them has nothing to do with my assertion.
All I did, was point out that the changes you posted do not change the fact that a chiropractic degree can only be obtained from the existing chiropractic institutions - that's all....
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 16, 2007 3:11:00 AM
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drbuddy
Posts: 429
Joined: July 30, 2005
From: Pennsylvania
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He's right to a certain extent, Marc. We can't let a few cheap shots here or there make us hypersensitive to anything said about chiropractic. I dont know how long you've been in practice, but over my two years I have gained enough confidence in what I do to be comfortable in my position. When you see posts like dina's you just have to shrug them off.
With that said, feel free to correct errors as you see them. That is usually the only time I'll let myself get drawn into these pissing matches. Just try to keep emotion out of it and stick to the facts. You'll have much more credibility that way and dina will look that much more ugly.
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 16, 2007 3:41:00 AM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
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Hi Bas,
Well, the fact remains that although CMCC is a private university, the Universite du Quebec a Trois Rivieres is a publically funded university that, in addition to offering a DC Degree, is a full fledged public university offering a multitude of degrees. Let's call it a draw ;)
Buddy
I definitely will stick to the high road and will not deliberately try to antagonize other members which our skin stretching specialist goes out of her way to do.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 17, 2007 6:18:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1211
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
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Marc - deal! (Since I was ignorant of that little fact about UQTR - LOL - my mistake)
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 17, 2007 6:32:00 AM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
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In point of fact, Chiro PR in Canada has used the TR university chiro program to imply that all chiro in Canada is uni based (in TV ads, etc.) as Marc is still trying to do.
To graduate from TR a chiro must be fluently ****** speaking- this is brushed completely aside as English speaking Can. chiros rush to claim some sort of uni-trained privilege, even though it likely stems from quite different roots in Quebec culture and whatever relationship exists between government and education there.
The English-speaking chiro program in Ontario is a legislated equivalence degree, not a true uni-degree.
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 17, 2007 6:33:00 AM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
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That should read F-R-E-N-C-H speaking.
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 17, 2007 1:55:00 PM
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PainFree
Posts: 84
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what's a "skin stretching specialist"? seems kind of silly
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 17, 2007 3:19:00 PM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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Diane (aka skin stretching specialist)
Are you suggesting UQTR trained DC's and their degree are better educated and more competent than CMCC grads and their DC degree?
You will say ANYTHING to make the Ontario school look bad. You bring a lot of hot air to this debate. I prefer to bring some evidence to support my claims.
The following link is the pass rate of the Canadian Chiropractic Board Exams by school of graduation. It proves two things
(1) Canadian schools, evidence based, university level are the best in North America and indeed world wide (European and Australian schools are included in this)
(2) Guess which school comes out on top? Hint: It's from Canada. Hint, hint. It's not UQTR. Maybe I should infer that your so called "legislative equivalence" is superior to your so called "real thing"
(3) This stats were compiled from 2004-2006, so they're recent.
http://www.cceb.ca/english/exam/written/Overall%20Pass%20Rate%20by%20College%20of%20Graduation.pdf
A very strong argument could be made that the Canadian schools are the best in the world in terms of admission standards, education standards, graduation standards, production of quality peer reviewed research and so on.
Simply put, Diane: you're wrong.
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 17, 2007 3:29:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
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Marc,
I dont mean to re-open this debate again but I thought we already established that CMCC and Chiropractics cannot really claim to be evidence based when there is such a lacking of quality evidence available in the chiropractic profession.
You never answered what kind of research you appraised at CMCC...
Here is some evidence to show the lack of quality research available in chiropractics..this is a systematic review ..level 1A evidence
: J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2006 Oct;29(8):658-71. Links
Chiropractic treatment of lower extremity conditions: a literature review.Hoskins W, McHardy A, Pollard H, Windsham R, Onley R.
Macquarie Injury Management Group, Department of Health and Chiropractic, Macquarie University, Australia. waynehoskins@optusnet.com.au
OBJECTIVE: The purpose of this study was to document the quantity and type of research conducted on the chiropractic management of lower extremity conditions. METHODS: A review of the literature was conducted using the CINAHL, MEDLINE, MANTIS, and Science Direct databases (each from inception to December 15, 2005). Search terms included chiropractic, hip, knee, ankle, foot, with Medical Subject Heading terms for each region. Inclusion criteria included studies with a lower extremity diagnosis, and the treatment was performed by doctors of chiropractic. Articles were excluded if pain was referred from spinal sites and if there was a duplicate publication; articles published in non-peer-reviewed literature and abstracts in conference proceedings were also excluded. Of the articles identified, an analysis was conducted assessing those including peripheral and/or spinal treatment. Clinical trials were assessed for quality using the Physiotherapy Evidence Database scale. RESULTS: There was a total of 1652 citations. Of these, 76 were deemed relevant; 24 were related to the foot, 10 to the ankle, 25 to the knee, and 17 to the hip. Twenty-nine citations included spinal treatment, 47 solely peripheral, and 2 solely spinal. Ten citations were clinical trials and scored on the Physiotherapy Evidence Database scale.
CONCLUSIONS: Literature on the chiropractic management of lower extremity conditions has a large number of case studies (level 4 evidence) and a smaller number of higher-level publications (level 1-3 evidence). Future chiropractic research should use higher-level research designs, such as randomized controlled trials.
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 17, 2007 3:43:00 PM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
Status: offline
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[QUOTE]Diane (aka skin stretching specialist)
Are you suggesting UQTR trained DC's and their degree are better educated and more competent than CMCC grads and their DC degree?
You will say ANYTHING to make the Ontario school look bad. You bring a lot of hot air to this debate. I prefer to bring some evidence to support my claims.
The following link is the pass rate of the Canadian Chiropractic Board Exams by school of graduation. It proves two things
(1) Canadian schools, evidence based, university level are the best in North America and indeed world wide (European and Australian schools are included in this)
(2) Guess which school comes out on top? Hint: It's from Canada. Hint, hint. It's not UQTR. Maybe I should infer that your so called "legislative equivalence" is superior to your so called "real thing"
(3) This stats were compiled from 2004-2006, so they're recent.
http://www.cceb.ca/english/exam/written/Overall%20Pass%20Rate%20by%20College%20of%20Graduation.pdf
A very strong argument could be made that the Canadian schools are the best in the world in terms of admission standards, education standards, graduation standards, production of quality peer reviewed research and so on.
Simply put, Diane: you're wrong.[/QUOTE]I am not wrong about what I stated. It's a counter to your spin, trying to acquire some extra panache or something by continuing to equate public universities (in English Canada) with chiro school in Toronto.
I never said anything about any of the points you are accusing me of being wrong about in the quote above. I don't know where you come up with this stuff. You are going off track, annoyed at me for pinning your distortions and constant spin about how great chiro education is in Canada and how it's university based etc. It might be uni-based in Quebec, but stop trying to pretend it's a university education in Ontario. It's a legislated equivalence. Period. I'm not trying to make the chiro school look bad, just real. If "real" looks bad compared to the gilded and slightly skewed picture you are trying to paint, that's not my bad, that's yours.
Even if it's the best chiro education in the whole wide world, Marc, it's still a chiro education compared to other chiro educations, not compared to anything else under the sun. Someone else pointed out that the only degree offered at your beloved school is a chiro degree. Does that require a reference? No, because it is simple truth.
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 17, 2007 5:23:00 PM
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Marc Bronson
Posts: 113
Joined: January 13, 2007
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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D,
Would you agree that a DC degree that is NMSK based only that focuses on the biological and clinical sciences producing well-educated health practitioners that are competent in diagnosis, differential diagnosis, formulating an outcome-based treatment plan providing hands on manual therapy which consists of soft tissue techniques, manipulation, therapeutic exercise, and healthy lifestyle advice and self-education is VALID? Because that's how CMCC and UQTR teaches. CMCC according to official government documentation (classification) is considered a private university.
Personally, if all for PUBLIC university, as private ones are far more expensive, but I made my choice. I could have gone to UQTR. I'm fluently bilingual, my mom is from Quebec. The Marc with a 'c' might have given that away. At any rate, when comparing the curriculums, staff, student opinions, research publications and choosing between Laval and Toronto, I chose Toronto. And the stats I provided you regarding boards would confirm that I made a good choice. Going to the US was never an option, mainly because of the heavy subluxation chiropractic model that is dominant over there, and also because our loonie was at 62.5 cents in 2002!
I've acknowledged to you and others several times that although this is unfortunately norm for the majority of chiro schools in North America, the Canadian model is a very good one. It's not exclusively about SMT anymore. In fact, when I graduated the only "technique" club that's really left is the Motion Palpation where the majority of diversifed chiropractic technique comes from. Amazingly enough, there are 3 soft tissue clubs, ART, Graston and Trigenics which at least knows it works on a neurological model. Factor in that 40% of my classmates got acupuncture training either at CMCC with the TCM model or at McMaster and you can start to see the how many approaches there are. My fiancee told me that between 40-50% of her class has taken or are enrolled with acupuncture at Mac or CMCC.
I also personally learned Mulligan Mobilizations by my sports clinicians during my internship in addition to all the other manual approaches that I have. Our palpation skills are excellent and manual skills will continue to improve as we get more clinical experience.
What I find partly ironic, is how you are all about the hands on manual therapy, the importance of human touch and how it can produce amazing results and thats exactly what I and the majority of my graduating class do regularly.
Honestly, Diane, where is the real beef with new grads from UQTR and CMCC? I almost NEED to know where this all comes from. You've devoted a lot of time and energy on every board you've been to, particularly chirotalk flaming us all. Allen, Marley, Grimace, Grimey and the majority of the ex-DC's there came from a really, really bad school(s). You only ever hear, or put yourself in a position to hear about the negatives. For crying out loud, Diane, all I ask of you is to use a bit of objectivity. I'm a manual therapist who, for better or worse, has graduated under the banner of DC. I don't know what "chiropractic" is because there is no real universal definition. Some say its subluxations and nerve interference resulting in disease. The only thing the quacks/straights/subluxation based/ DC are concerned is about spine, spine, spine for EVERYTHING. The Canadian schools have a completely different paradigm. Sure, manipulation will always be associated with chiropractic, just like rehabiliation will always be associated with physical therapy. However, just as certain PT's now have embraced SMT, certain DC's have embraced soft tissue/rehabilitation. I bet if you saw me practice, from doing a history to my examination, to my report of findings, to my plan of management to my actual manual skills and you would be extremtly hard pressed to find major inadequacies despite this being my first full year of practice. Most importantly, I could back up everything I do and tell you WHY I'm doing it. And, of course, I would have literature there to support my interventions.
I'm trying to find some middle ground with you and would like for us to be civil, but as long as you automatically assume that every single person with a DC title is an unethical, incompetent, cultish brick layer, you and I will always clash.
Truce?
_____________________________
BSc (Hon), DC, Dipl. Med. Ac. CSCS
Integrative Manual Medicine
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Re: The Final Word: ALL DC education in Canada is UNIVE... - January 17, 2007 5:32:00 PM
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drbuddy
Posts: 429
Joined: July 30, 2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
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ON,
One point I'd like to address with you. Evidence based does not = level 1A evidence.
And to answer a question you had in another thread, no, DC college is not *that* different than PT school.
I'll also ask the question again (and forgive me if you addressed this), Stu McGill is a prominent research on the lumbar spine. He is a PhD, not a PT. Do you feel that you, as a PT, with much different training, can apply what is found in his research.
In my opinion, your argument has no merit.
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