|
|
Soap for RLS
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Soap for RLS - November 11, 2005 1:11:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
“My elderly neighbor suffers from Restless Leg Syndrome (RLS), and she places two unwrapped bars of soap under the fitted sheet of her bed and she is able to sleep through the night without her legs keeping her up…The soap doesn’t even have to touch the person’s feet or leg, it just needs to be placed at the end of the bed. I have heard that any soap can be used. However, my neighbor claims only certain soaps work, like Caress or Dove, but not Dial (or any other antibacterial soap).
I am not sure about the biological, chemical or even logical reason it works-but it does!”
Signed,
Jaimie Perkunas, DPT
Sandwich, Illinois
What you just read was delivered to my office this week in Advance for Physical Therapists and PT Assistants, November 7, 2005, Page 4, in “Letters to the Editor.” It was triggered by a recent article in this magazine about RLS. I edited the letter just a bit, leaving out some redundancy but the rest is verbatim.
My questions: How did this letter ever get published? Should we ask the editor what they were thinking? Should we try to ask the author if she is serious? How does a therapist like this end up with a DPT? What are the implications of such a letter appearing in so widely distributed a publication?
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 11, 2005 2:21:00 AM
|
|
|
SJBird55
Posts: 2438
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
You know, I used to read Advance many years ago... it's a piece of trash. Back when I started reading it, there might have been one article that had value, but the overall quality of the product sucked. I haven't picked it up in so long. The example of the soap article is an example of what the particular magazine is full of. An article in that particular magazine that is of poor quality doesn't surprise me, and truthfully is expected by me. I mean, the magazine is free... don't you get what you pay for? LOL
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 11, 2005 2:36:00 AM
|
|
|
Shill
Posts: 1097
Joined: February 13, 2003
From: Madison WI USA
Status: offline
|
Well, Im thinking that this is an inside job, and the DPT actually stands for Dove Products Tester. (Dial would work too) Cant be anything else..... I hope. Have we made sure we have protected the DPT abbreviation too?
_____________________________
Steve Hill PT
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 11, 2005 9:15:00 AM
|
|
|
ehanso
Posts: 355
Joined: September 14, 2004
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
|
Will a firm sponge in a soap wrapper do the same thing? Sounds to me like a perfect double blind study opportunity with grant money for a starving student.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 13, 2005 5:26:00 PM
|
|
|
pwrandall
Posts: 66
Joined: May 14, 2004
From: Elk Grove, CA
Status: offline
|
While the author is certainly suspect, what should we require of the editor of such a publication? Isn't someone usually held accountable for what is included in a publication beyond the author. On a personal note, I hear therapists refer to things they read in ADVANCE all of the time and cringe each and every time.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 12:28:00 AM
|
|
|
Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1207
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
|
If it was published in a reputable publication, it would be considered " the silly things people do" and I would publish it myself as editor - just to make people go "hmmmmm". What I know of the Advance, I can not say I have confidence that this what they had in mind....
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 12:47:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
I wrote this editor to object to several claims made by one of their columnists in 2004 regarding "energy" medicine that made the same degree of sense that the "nonantibacterial unwrapped soap for RLS" makes.
I was told by the editor the letter would be published, only to be subsequently informed that since the columnist refused to reply to any criticism it would not be. I replied that this was an editorial policy I'd never heard of before and, in fact, I haven't since.
I used to write for Advance every once in a while, but no more.
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 4:24:00 AM
|
|
|
drbuddy
Posts: 429
Joined: July 30, 2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
|
Funny thing is, I just had a patient last week tell me the exact same thing. I dont think she had true RLS, but her legs would cramp up at night. She heard from a friend about the soap trick and it worked for her. I could not, for the life of me, come up with mechanism either. Weird....
My question is, what is the problem here? The DPT was just sharing an experience. I dont know about you, but if a pt comes in with RLS or leg cramps, besides the normal course of care I might suggest the soap trick. I'd prob tell them yeah, it's goofy, but if nothing else works...
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 4:28:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
What did you go to school for?
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 4:32:00 AM
|
|
|
Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
|
It must lift the heel(s) up a little bit or something; some sort of neuromodulatory input. If it does "work", that particular mechanism has to be in operation somehow from cognitive side or physical side. Probably sleeping in hammocks would work too.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 4:39:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
Diane,
You're being far too kind. From the letter: "The soap doesn’t even have to touch the person’s feet or leg, it just needs to be placed at the end of the bed."
Remember this is just between the sheets, down at the foot. Not under the mattress.
Oh yes, don't forget the "nonantibacterial" specification. I'm wondering if drbuddy's patient was as, uh, "scientific."
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 4:57:00 AM
|
|
|
drbuddy
Posts: 429
Joined: July 30, 2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
|
I am a chiropractor.
Tell me this, you have a patient with RLS that has tried everything under the sun, that was even treated by yourself, but with no releif. Would you mention this to them? If not, why? What's the harm? What are the risks associated with sleeping with soap under the sheets?
I was playing devil's advocate when I made that post, but there was some seriousness to it.
It was a letter to the editor, right? If so, I'll ask again, what is the big deal here? It's not like it was the featured article for that issue.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 4:59:00 AM
|
|
|
Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
|
Didn't it have to be under the fitted sheet according to the description of the (um..) intervention? That would lift the heels up a bit. Maybe, maybe not. So would a hammock, a lot more. The rest (antibacterial or not, wrapped or unwrapped etc.) sounds like irrelevant bafflegab.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 5:34:00 AM
|
|
|
drbuddy
Posts: 429
Joined: July 30, 2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
|
Ok, let's approach this from a different angle. I mentioned earlier that I thought my patient was suffering from leg cramps and not really RLS. What is in soap that would releive these cramps? Is there a reasonable explanation? I think you people are being awfully unscientific by being so adamant that this could not work, no way, no how, how dare we even suggest it might work.
Ok, let's say it is pure and utter BS (which it could be). How did this rumor spread and why does it seem to be pretty well known among people suffering from leg cramps (and maybe RLS)?
In searching the web, there are quite a number of references to this old wive's tale. Interesting. Dr. Gott even seems to support it for leg cramps.
http://www.nwherald.com/StyleSection/gott/313304698145967.php
Ann Landers too:
http://www.jrussellshealth.com/cramps.html
Ahh, looks like it originated with Ann Landers:
http://www.sleepnet.com/rls5/messages/365.html
Oh, and I dont understand the heel lift Diane. How does placing soap under the sheets lift the heels? The person does not rest their foot on it.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 5:34:00 AM
|
|
|
Jon Newman
Posts: 1710
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
|
While there is no harm sleeping with soap in your bed that I know of, I think it is unhelpful to perpetuate a belief that has no apparent ties to reality. Why not also suggest a large number of other specific and irrelevant behaviors, perhaps sprinkling salt (kosher only) around the bed or suggesting that they drink cider vinegar (not regular) and honey (tupelo only) or comb their hair only with their left hand?
If you do nothing to stop the spread of irrationality, isn't that harmful? Do you promote the same type of thing in your children? Don't study, just eat chocolate. Ok, that one might be debatable.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 5:38:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
To my understanding, RLS is a central nervous system disoder which has in all the years we've known of it never responded to any sort of neuromodulation. There are CNS problems that do, of course. This isn't one of them.
The reason I wouldn't mention this to a patient is because it's irrational, crazy, unsupported by any evidence whatsoever and cannot be defended using the tools of logic or science I learned during the many years of my education. This includes elementary school.
Of course it's not going to harm your patient. But are they going to say to their friends, "He cares so much he'll try anything if he thinks it might help." or "He's such a nut he told me to put an unwrapped bar of nonantibacterial soap beneath the sheets of my bed for my RLS."
Ultimately, I think this discussion is another excellent example why the phrase "It works" makes the hair stand out on the back of my neck and, possibly, my skin crawl.
Must be a mind-body thing with me.
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 5:51:00 AM
|
|
|
Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
|
"Oh, and I dont understand the heel lift Diane. How does placing soap under the sheets lift the heels? The person does not rest their foot on it."
Buddy, I was seeing the soap lifting up the sheet lifting up the heels. That's all.
If Barrett's right and RLS is central, not neuro-modulateble/modifiable ( ...and he's probably right), then the whole conversation is irrelevant, other than to point out how much pruning is needed in the cognitive forest, with Occam's chainsaw.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 6:05:00 AM
|
|
|
JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
|
Barrett-
While I share your concerns, I wouldn't let the letters after the name bother you too much. Certainly I have seen equally foolish things attributed to those with advanced educations, I think PTs probably are no different.
I think the author could have made clear the difference between - "It works, I recommend it!", and "My patients claim it works - isn't that interesting/funny?".
If the emphasis from the author was the second example I gave, then no big deal. If it was the first, then I agree with you completely about the issues this brings up.
I agree with SJ - I have found Advance to be a trash rag as well.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 7:16:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
Jason,
No such clarification was offered. Think I ought to invite the editor to this discussion?
I know there are a few DPTs that might not care about the science behind practice, but aren't they at some point suppose to demonstrate at least some knowledge of it? This isn't just any education-it's suppose to concern itself with a certain body of knowledge relevant to the subject of disability and rehab from the same. If a highly trained lawyer were to make this error I could understand-but not a PT.
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Soap for RLS - November 14, 2005 7:55:00 AM
|
|
|
nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
Status: offline
|
Hasn't anyone thought of placebo effect?
If a magazine which has some following (and I gather that this Advance magazine does, of a sort), and a PT advised that it's worth trying to put soap in the bed...for some patients it's going to work.
On the other hand, camphor is a popular choice, or a small dog, or a Tibetan rose, or,,,,,
As I understand it, RLS is associated with central sensitisation, and seems to appear with quite chronic conditions..not necessarily pain.
At the pain clinic where I worked the "syndrome" was not uncommon with well established maladjusted CNSystems...that is, with the patients, not the staff. Nobody took much notice because RLS wasn't going to resolve until some sort of desensitisation process was started.
I think it fits with the phrase 'abnormal neurodynamic'...but haven't any further ideas on resolution. I do remember a chap who was started on gabapentin and the RLS disappeared.
That's not a recommendation..though!
Nari
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
0.156
|
Printable Version
All Forums >> [RehabEdge Forum] >> Open Forum >> Soap for RLS 
