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Should DPT's be called "Doctor"?
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Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 5, 2002 6:19:00 AM
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PTupdate.com
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From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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I have now seen or heard two cases where DPT's are calling themselves "Doctor", which seems to confuse patients. Most people relate the designation of "Doctor" to either an MD, DDS, DDM, DPM, and occasionally a chiropracter. In both cases, the therapist did not inform the patient "I have my doctorate in physical therapy". Is it fair for physical therapists to mislead patients in this way?
John Duffy, PT OCS [URL=http://www.PTupdate.com]www.PTupdate.com[/URL]
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 5, 2002 6:30:00 AM
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jma
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Hello,
It sounds interesting but I too have rarely heard of anyone being called Dr. when they have a doctorate in Physical Therapy, with the excetpion of my professors. It would seem appropriate to tell their patients about their designation and what it means. Otherwise, patients may think that they are physiatrists, if they know about that specialty. It is a matter of addressing the professional appropriately. Still, if the profession is moving toward the DPT, it would not be a bad idea to start explaining what it means.
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 5, 2002 8:48:00 AM
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PTstud
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From: Texas
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I think that if chiropractors are sometimes called "Doctors", PTs deserve to be called that too. This is because I believe that PTs treat patients more effectively and that some of the Chiro's beliefs and practices are just totally outrageous. But honestly, I dont think anybody being called a doctor will try to correct the person, because it feels good being called a doctor. In an educational setting anybody with a doctorate deserves that title, but not in a medical facility unless they are an MD.
Mike
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 5, 2002 12:52:00 PM
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mcap
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John:
This is an intersting question. I don't know the answer. Chiropractors, DPMs, Dentists, optometrists all call themsevles Dr.s. What do we do? One difference is that their state licencses refer to them as Dr. also.....ours don't. I think for people in private practice hanging out the shingle, it would not hurt and may help. We should explain the implications of an entry level clincal doctorate however.
Don't forget that many of your friend neighborhood pharmacists may be PharmDs. Do they insist on being called doctor. Would you even know?
We will see where this ends up. I was annoyed with a DPT who purported himself as if he had a PhD but other than that I haven't seen much Hubris on the part of newer grads. They are very concerned about how they will appear to their colleagues once in practice.
Take care,
mcap
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 5, 2002 5:06:00 PM
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Bobcat
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I totally agree -- it can be confusing and presumptuous for PTs to expect clients to refer to them as "Doctor". To avoid this confusion in my clinic, I usually inform my patients that they can refer to me as "Master Clinician", "Your Holiness", or "Hands of He Whom Was Chosen". This prevents misdirected questions and allows them to distinguish me from the internists.
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"I have an M.D. from Harvard, I am board certified in cardio-thoracic medicine and trauma surgery, I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you; when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trama from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now, go ahead and read your Bible, **Dennis**, and you go to your church, and, with any luck, you might win the annual raffle. But if you're looking for God, He was in Operating Room Number 2 on November 17, and he doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God."
-- Dr. "Jed" Hill, "Malice", 1993
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 6, 2002 5:36:00 AM
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mcap
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"This side-show is over....."
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 6, 2002 9:40:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Hey there,
As I live in Canada where there is no DPT specialization to my knowledge (but would appreciate being corrected on that if I'm wrong) I'm not sure of exactly what training these physio's recieve. The common bond that all professionals given the legal title of "Dr" is that they can diagnose disease and disorders. Are DPT's licenced to make and give diagnoses? If not, it is both illegal and unethical to use this title until you are successful in changing the legislation that prohibits you from doing so. If you DO make diagnoses, then rightfully you should be able to use the title.
ChiroGuy
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 25, 2002 4:32:00 AM
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dawas99
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First We have to know , every thing changes especially in health field . every day we hear there is an invention and an improvement e.g.: new technique in surgery , new drug useful for AIDS and a new technique in P.T. that’s development not limited on the practice only.
Why we are not say ,yes there is an improvement in this profession and in it’s staff .
I mean, when all of us concert the P.T has an important and a good future among all of health professions. So it is logically the physical therapist will step him self forward as his profession is.
And all of us know the history of profession P.T and how it is growth until today , one of that’s aspect is DPT.
Doctor title (Dr) not come abruptness or sudden in all of health professions e.g. MD,DC,DDS, Pharm D and DPT.
So, this title (Dr) is deserved for P.T (DPT) . and all of the patients have to know that with out confused.
About ChiroGuy enquiry….
Yes the P.T and DPT licensed to make and give diagnoses . not only that but he can do the examination, evaluation and make his Dx. And you can refer Guide to P.Ts practice .2nd ed,Phys Ther 2001;81:9-744 .
Dawas
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The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will
[This message has been edited by dawas99 (edited April 25, 2002).]
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 25, 2002 4:38:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Dawas,
Although I didn't understand a lot of what you were trying to communicate, I find it interesting that there is such a large difference between PT's in Canada and the US.
Only licenced primary care practitioners (ie. Optometrists, Psychologists, Medical Doctors, Chiropractors, Dentists and Podiatrists) can make a diagnosis in Canada. In this country, a medical diagnosis is considered a Controlled Act and there are very specific diagnoses that each of the above professionals can make.
All other regulated health professionals (including PTs) can only make an Assessment, which is legally different from a Diagnosis. Much information is conveyed through an assessment, but the "label" of the disease or disorder is not given. Although the differnces may seem minimal in practice, they are worlds apart legally and for financial reasons (to the doctor). I find it odd that such a discrepency exists between the two systems. It is my understanding that even if someone with a DPT degree practiced in Canada, they would not have the legal right to use the title Doctor or convey a diagnosis.
Oh, the subtle differences that make our countries unique ....
ChiroGuy
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 25, 2002 6:01:00 PM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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To Chiroguy: For your clarification;
In the province of BC, since, well...forever I think, a PT could apply for direct access status simply by, well... applying for it. And paying an extra $10 Canadian for the paperwork. Those PTs who had direct access (no MD referral necessary to diagnose and treat patients for musculo/skeletal/fascial problems) were deemed to be "registered" (RPT) and those who didn't were deemed to be "chartered" (CPT). Different provinces have had different policies. But all PTs have to adhere to a nationally standardized education.
Regarding BC again, to streamline the system the different catagories were eliminated in 1994, and ALL PTs were automatically assigned direct access.
Furthermore, PTs in this country have always been able to achieve "Dr." title by going off to get a PhD in rehab science or whatever...
So please check your facts before pronouncing on PT in Canada. Thank you.
Diane
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 25, 2002 9:28:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Diane, sorry for mistakenly speaking for British Columbian PTs. I guess the information I was given only pertains to Ontario (where I am); I had just ASS-U-MEd that this was the legislature across the country. Thank you for correcting me.
Bobcat, congratulations on making a constructive and obviously thought out comment - it's good to see you can make a valuable addition to the discussion. I hope you keep it up. Oh yeah, and just to beat you to it, insert sarcastic comment here :
Talk to you soon, doctors [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/wink.gif[/IMG]
ChiroGuy
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 26, 2002 9:19:00 PM
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Bournephysio
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Physiotherapists in Ontario have direct access as well. I know B.C. Alberta, Ontario and Quebec all have direct access. When I was a student I did a rotation in Manitoba. At the time you could see a patient for a week before you needed a doctor's referral. This may be different now. I don't know how it is in the other provinces. Therapists in all of these provinces diagnose.
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 27, 2002 8:12:00 AM
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Diane
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Chiroguy, I find it easier to forgive your lack of info re: PT in Canada than I can your Ontariocentrism... [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG] However, I'll let you get away with it this time, one time only!
Bournephysio, sounds like you are Can. too. [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]
Diane
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 29, 2002 2:21:00 PM
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ChiroGuy
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Diane,
Upon reviewing my responses to this forum I realize that in fact it is you, not I, who was likely in err. At no point did I ever imply that PT’s do not enjoy direct access, which was your main criticism. After carefully detailing which professionals are licensed to give a DIAGNOSIS in Canada (to the best of my knowledge), I merely stated that physio’s are legally entitled to make assessments. Please review my comments for your clarification. Is it in fact law in BC that a physio can make a legal DIAGNOSIS (as worded in the medical act)? It is my understanding that this falls under the jurisdiction of the Canada Health Act, not provincial laws. Although one may make a “diagnosis” of a condition before treating it (most health professionals do this before giving therapy), under the law it is not considered as such. If I made a mistake with these statements, I humbly appreciate any corrections you or other members may be able to provide.
In Ontario, physiotherapists also have direct access priveledges so if you’d ever like to make the move you’ll still be able to practice in a similar way here(just less rain to deal with [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/wink.gif[/IMG] ). To clarify; physiotherapists, magnetic healers, massage therapists, acupuncturists, teachers, nurses, athletes, psychics, etc may all achieve the title Doctor by attaining a PhD in any discipline. This does not imply a legal right to make a diagnosis.
To close, I will echo your sentiments; “please check your facts before pronouncing on physiotherapy in Canada”. As for the Ontariocentrism comment, I’m really not sure what you are alluding to or what I said that you would interpret in such a way. That really came out of left field. I can only conclude that you have some sort of underlying jealousy or distaste for Ontarians as a whole. Fortunately, I cannot reciprocate your feelings as I am very fond of BC.
But enough bickering – let’s get things back on track. Refocussing back to the original question, should DPT’s be called doctor? I’ve already put in my two cents on the matter; anyone else?
ChiroGuy
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 29, 2002 3:17:00 PM
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researchdoc
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OK, what the hey- sure, they should be allowed to use the title "Doctor". They earned it.
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 29, 2002 3:35:00 PM
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researchdoc
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This is interesting. Chiroguy, you say "The common bond that all professionals given the legal title of "Dr" is that they can diagnose disease and disorders."
Could you please reference a specific statute wherein this legal definition resides?
Thanks.
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 29, 2002 6:01:00 PM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Hello Chiroguy,
Yes, we can make "diagnoses". In fact, we are obligated to by law, under the subsection "Minimal treatment standards", which I found by going to "C.P.T.B.C." (which stands for College of P.T. of B.C.)
The word "diagnosis" doesn't conflict with any other sort of diagnosis from any other health professional, because it it preceded by the word "physiotherapy" as in "physiotherapy diagnosis." We aren't trying to be "medical" diagnosers. Although if we catch the odd zebra while we're busy taming all the horses, more's the better, I'm sure....
There are a lot of parameters to our privilege of being registered as you will note if you look up the site. Not treating unnecessarily is a biggy... the obligation to share information with collegues and do research is stated....
Re: Ontariocentrism: It's not me being anti-Ontario it's my observation of someone (it just happened to be you this time...) from Ontario thinking that whatever goes on in Ontario represents what goes on in the rest of the nine provinces. You have a lot of company, CG, so relax...I already forgave you for that, but I'm willing to retract that forgiveness if you'd rather spar. [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]
Diane
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 29, 2002 6:20:00 PM
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Bournephysio
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Actually Chiroguy, you stated that only primary care practitioners could make a diagnosis. Is this not represented by direct access?
It is required by the BC college of physical therapists (our regulatory body) for physiotherapists to make a diagnosis before treating patients.
Back to the question. I do not think that optometrists, chiropractors, PharmDs, or physiotherapists should use the clinical title of doctor. But since I don't think we will be able to remove the doctor title from the other professions, I fully support a move towards physiotherapists using the title.
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - April 29, 2002 6:56:00 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Yes, in Ontario we too can make a "physiotherpay diagnosis".
Has nothing to do with being called "doctor".
I've been called worse...but mostly better....
If one has worked for a "DPT" (soon to be in Canada too) - why not: "Doctor" sounds fine for them. I'll remain:
"Hey you" "God" "Sylvester" "Sebastian"
My favourite: "daddy"
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Re: Should DPT's be called "Doctor"? - May 2, 2002 6:15:00 AM
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Mark Hirsch
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Interesting topic. People don't "get" their Doctorate or "have" a Ph.D. in such-and-such -- this degree is "earned" or awarded -- unless you buy one on the internet. Having gone through the Ph.D. process I can say that in the beginning it was sweet to hear the "Dr" before my name but that soon wears off. It's not about the two little letters or the plaque on my wall but about what that plaque symbolizes in terms of critical thinking and facing adversity. Every rite-of-passage has that, be it the passage from being a student of PT to becomming one or from being a medical student and intern to becomming a Doctor.
Personally, I think that out of respect for what a person has achieved once they complete their doctorate, anyone who has been awarded a Ph.D., EDD or other doctorate has the right to be called "Dr". I respect people not their title, be it PT, OT, MD or Ph.D., but if it floats someones boat to hear "Dr" and they earned one then I'll oblige them. If a DPT manages to write and defend a dissertation (no easy task) I think they qualify to be referred to as Dr. so and so by everyone.
In the US the word Professor is not used like it is in Germany, for example. Eventhough an assistant, associate or full Prof. can still go by their title, what is written on their letter head and how someone is addressed in public or at a conference are different things. In the US things are a bit more relaxed than in Europe where titles still carry great (social) meaning and those who earn them carry them with a great deal of pride.
Mark
[This message has been edited by Mark Hirsch (edited May 02, 2002).]
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