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Private Clinic Income
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Private Clinic Income - July 26, 2006 5:09:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
Status: offline
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Hello,
I was hoping someone could give me an idea of what the average net inome is for a private physio owned clinic in Canada. Any input would be appreciated.
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Re: Private Clinic Income - July 27, 2006 2:17:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1105
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
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Hey ONstudent. Too many variables to cover all aspects of income. How many hours do you want to work? One-on-one? With an aide (PTA)? You want to own or lease the building? You want to do WSIB? You want to go solo or have associates/independent practitioners too? Anyone else in your clinic? Like Kinesiologists, Massage Therapists? Are you mainly manually focused or do you have a hankering for mostly exercise rehab? Do you want to invest in modalities and gym equipment? How many other clinics are nearby? PT as well as DC.
All of these aspects have a huge impact on the clinic's net income>. And I think you mean the owner's "net income" - talk to an accountant about the year-end preferences for the clinic's income.
Net owner incomes can range all over the place - from 32k to sky high. Many non income benefits - car-gas-travel-dining-courses-conventions-subscriptions-books etc etc that really reduce the personal outlay of money every month....making the "net" be of higher value by reducing your costs....
Visit a few clinics in different places, try to check different set-ups (small one-person, big multi-professional, etc), ask about pros and cons from the owner themselves, and ask. I'll send you a personal message with my range of income.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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Re: Private Clinic Income - July 27, 2006 6:56:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
Status: offline
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Hey Sebastian thanks for the reply.
I am still a PT student here in ontario so I probably wont be opening a clinic for another couple of years. I can understand that there are numerous variables that will determine your income as a private clinic owner.
I was just looking for an average estimate of what the owners net income would be for an average physio owned clinic. I also understand that with the tax structure in Canada someone with a business net income of lets say 80K would have to be making around 95K at a hospital to have the same value of pay.
I was basically just trying to get an idea of what an average net income for physio owned clinic would be assuming this clinic has survived and has been running for a while.
Also what is the success rate for physio owned clinics. What is the potential income, for instance what is the highest number you have heard of? Owners of multiple clinics?
Thanks for all the input!
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 26, 2006 5:24:00 PM
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JeffWigg
Posts: 2
Joined: November 17, 2006
Status: offline
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Again, many Variables,.
There are many percs as stated.
And it depends more on your business savy and ability to create good relationships with referral sources and the public alike.
A good PT can bill as much as 200K plus, but that is gross billings, there are a lot of expenses for support staff, lease, marketing, etc. How amny PT you can get productive etc.
Where are you located PT student ?
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 27, 2006 11:21:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
Status: offline
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Hey Jeff,
I am here in Ontario. I posted this question cause I was just wondering about what the average income for private clinic owners was because the average salary numbers that you get when you look them up are mostly for the public sector PTs and like its stated on the OPA website its difficult to know what the average income for private owners would be.
I have asked some physios who do own clinics and they have told me the average is around 90-100k a year. If you dont want to work that hard and like to be comfortable you might make less but they also said that if you work hard and have some luck you can make up to 150k perhaps owning a couple of clinics. Ofcourse they also said that there are risks like with any other business and you can loss 100k if you flop...
so basically I was just looking for "opinions" of what private owners average income are..
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 27, 2006 11:43:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1105
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
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Onstudent, some PTs have gross billings of 180,000 a year, some as little as 120,000 - take home pay depends on whether you're a clinic owner, whether you have more than one clinic, whether you are your own employee (if your clinic is an Inc.), whether you are employee in other-owned clinic etc etc.
I have seen three clinics flop here, but the main reason for 2 of them, was the mixed ownership and their divorce, and the other one was because they tried to resurrect an OHIP license without doing extended health (its new owner is doing well, however - hard work, but well). We have 12 clinics here - 7 PT-owned.
My income has varied from $68,000 to 83,000 and varies from year to year. Realize that many many costs are carried by my clinic, that an employe would have to pay themselves. The equivalent of "salary" would be in the range of 75,000 to 100,000. And this is NOT overworking - weekly 40 hours patient time, some management and admin hours added to that.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 28, 2006 9:32:00 AM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
Status: offline
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Onstudent, what really matters is what amount of $ you get to keep after costs. I think mine is the same range as Seb's, and I don't work nearly as hard as he does, I bet. :D
I see patients for an hour, yes they are "tough" patients, but not so tough when you know your way around persistent pain. I charge them $90. Cash or cheque. I do not bill any insurance companies, which saves me lots of time and stress. I do not pay anything for advertising, other than a steady supply of business cards and some pamphlets on a sandwich board up on the street outside.I see max 6 patients a day, 5 days/week. Most months I work about 100 patient-hours. That comes out to about $9000 a month gross. I'm taking Wednesdays off for the rest of the winter. And most of December, because I don't feel at the top of my own neural physiology in December.
Diane
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 28, 2006 5:09:00 PM
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physioo
Posts: 184
Joined: June 26, 2006
From: Canada
Status: offline
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Wow Diane, That looks a great idea, I wish I can see patients for an hour, Sometimes I have 3-4 patients an hour, and I go crazy!!!
God help me I pray
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 29, 2006 7:25:00 AM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
Status: offline
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physioo I forgot to make it clear that I'm in Canada. I know you are inwardly debating the pros and cons of working here or in the US. I want to add to that debate, that you should figure in the cost of medical insurance. Here it is only 6 or 7 hundred a year, whereas if you work in the US that cost goes up to that much per month, easily, plus you could easily be tempted to become someone's pet PT slave if they offer to pay that for you as a deal sweetener. Be wary, be canny, weigh EVERYthing, not just how much money you might make. Know that you can design a cash practice anyway you want in Canada, that PTs here have always more legislated freedom/less beaurocratic red tape when it comes to scope of practice.
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 30, 2006 6:17:00 AM
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james097
Posts: 178
Joined: January 27, 2005
From: West Vancouver BC
Status: offline
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dfj paints a rosy picture of practicing here and it is good if you already have your own dwelling. The cheapest 1200 sq ft apartment in my area is $659,000. The cheapest house, very old, "waiting on your ideas till you build your dream house" is
$800,000. Anything detached and livable is over a million. Taxes go hand in hand with higher house prices. If you really want something nice the Shangri La in Vancouver has a couple of 1700 sq ft suites left in the 64 story building for $2.7000.000 each, better rush.
Jim McGregor
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 30, 2006 8:40:00 AM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
Status: offline
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Well James, you do live in a quite posh "area"... :D
But you're right, overall.. yes, I do have a dwelling, a modest condo that I bought 10 years ago and while it doesn't leak, it is not yet paid off either. If you don't have expensive tastes, a family to raise, OR if you don't have lots of overhead, you'll do ok.
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 30, 2006 3:53:00 PM
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james097
Posts: 178
Joined: January 27, 2005
From: West Vancouver BC
Status: offline
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Yes, West Vancouver is as "posh" as it gets (does everyone know what posh means?) The library issues more books percent of population than any where in Canada, we are the leanest people in Canada, the highest income and the area with the most university grads. Oh yes, and the lowest % of smokers. The fitness clubs are full of 80 yearolds. If anyone mentions leaky condos you know they are from Vancouver area. Many condos were built to a code which must have been suitable for Nevada and not for the wet west coast. We have just had the worst weather in 30 years, getting all the bad stuff over before the World Congress of Physical Therapists, June 2007. See you all in Vancouver.
Jim McGregor
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 30, 2006 4:08:00 PM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
Status: offline
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James you forgot this one: the highest density of millionaires per block in Canada.
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Re: Private Clinic Income - November 30, 2006 5:15:00 PM
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james097
Posts: 178
Joined: January 27, 2005
From: West Vancouver BC
Status: offline
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Yes that is true, sorry but we take it so foregranted, and the largest percentage of people over the age of 95 and still driving, causing the rest of us to become the most defensive drivers in the world! Thank god the snow is going.
Jim McGregor
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Re: Private Clinic Income - December 5, 2006 1:12:00 PM
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physioo
Posts: 184
Joined: June 26, 2006
From: Canada
Status: offline
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dfjpt
thanks for ur answere re Canada vs US!
That was a great reply!
I will look futher into that, just want to get a Porsche
hha kidding
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