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PT looking for ATC program
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PT looking for ATC program - August 3, 2004 6:21:00 PM
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ptdan23
Posts: 224
Joined: November 6, 2003
From: Orlando, FL
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Hi everyone...hoping someone can help me with this question. Unfortunately I missed the deadline (Dec 2003) of when you could still do the internship route and be eligible to sit for the NATA boards. I am looking for a program to be eligible to sit for the boards. I know my PT degree can get me far but for what I want to do (sports) I think I would be much more marketable being both an PT & ATC! My first question is...does anyone know of a program that you can do part-time? And then secondly, I really don't want another BS so it would probably make more sense to go for a master's. Does anymore know of a program where you don't already have to be certified to be admitted into the program? FYI...I am in the Orlando, FL area so preferrably programs close but would look anywhere.
Thanks for your help in advance,
Dan, PT.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 4, 2004 11:07:00 AM
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ptace
Posts: 85
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From: Illinois
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Look at the NATA's site (www.nata.org). They oversee all of the graduate entry level AT programs and provide links.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 4, 2004 1:23:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
Joined: May 8, 2004
From: West Palm Beach
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barking up the wrond tree, your PT degree is VERY marketable for sports, just get your SCS certification, that is everything an ATC can do...good luck
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 4, 2004 5:27:00 PM
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ptdan23
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From: Orlando, FL
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FLAOrthoPT...do you think a potential employer (sports team) would agree with you?
Dan, PT
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 4, 2004 5:37:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
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From: West Palm Beach
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As long as you let them know, market yourself, I feel that the SCS should allow you to do anything an ATC can do. As far as I know, all the on the field first responder training is absolutely covered in the SCS, in fact you can get this course online home study. So it shows you yes you are very qualified to do sports, as far as taping goes, just take a basic ATC course at a local university audit the course, or hang out with some ATC at local high schools etc, taping isn't that hard...
Sports Physical Therapy specialists address the physiological, psychological, pathological, and performance problems of athletes and attempt to prevent or correct these problems. The scope of the practice includes acute injury management, on-the-field evaluation, pharmacology in athletics, and the physiology of athletic performance.
Now, they are not dumb they are looking to save money, so if they can get you for the price of one person, an atc or a pt, but they can have you do both jobs... then they are real happy. I worked with the redskins for a short time, and the pt/atc they have makes about 70K a year, which in my opinion sucks considering he is the only PT, and one of 3 or 4 atc for an entire team, year round with maybe 2 weeks off a year and at times he must travel and spend as many as 22 hours a day working during camp time. SO my advice would be, make sure you know what you want to do, I'd stay away from sports in that nature because you are a complete grunt with no say, you do whatever the ortho says, they do not respect the PT position adn they hold the atc almost higher than the PT. i believe, and if you explained what it was, then they can realize that they can work you like a dog too, and pay you next to nothing for the amount of time you work, and on top of it, your brain will go numb doing rehab protocols all day. howeverm if it is just what you want to do, for some few it is, then go for it, but screw the ATC route, get your SCS, which is a lot of work, but a hwole lot less expensive, maybe like 2000 total including the exam, and that should be good enough for most sports team, and my last advice is know someone, because most of those jobs with big colleges or professionals are who you know and not what you know, you'd be amazed at the knowledge level of the pts and atc in the pros. I have 3 friends still in the nfl, so if you have any more questions, let me know. You can get the responder course on line and the EMT
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 5, 2004 6:14:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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I am going to disagree. Inherently the ATC is bred into the field of sports...from day one. The SCS is a certification, not a degree and certainly does not require the type of observed/mentored activities as the AT-C does. I work with ATC's daily and their beadth of knowledge with on field exams and treatments is outstanding. For a PT, the addition of an ATC is very much like a residency in sports medicine.
As a physician, I find the ATC to be an absolute asset, a necessity for any PT wanting to be on the sideline.
_____________________________
Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 5, 2004 8:54:00 AM
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FLAOrthoPT
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i will agree to disagree, I cannot think of anything the ATC can "examine" or respond to on the field that a sports minded PT could not? I took most of the classes for a double major in ATC, but didn't finish, but looking back ATC learn some rehab protocols but none of the foundation behind it. They are good for what they do, but a PT would be just as good or better, now I am not talking about taking the PT out of the hospital or SNF and thrwoing them on the field, but a sports savy PT who treats a majority of athletes is far able to be on the field with an SCS. I am sorry to here that you too are in certain locales that MDs and PTs alike allow ATC to be in the clinic as a primary treatment personnel. I think that most ATCs that I have had the chance to mentor as part of their internship are ok for what they do, but they're overall lack of knowledge, even the ones who pass the exams, is telling of the breadth of information they attain. Now, don't start an ATC we hate PT thread, because I know some very good ATC, but the things they push for as far as what they should be able to do in the clinic, and their "diagnosing" which they are not licensed to do, is not apporopriate, they should get their PT if they wish to be such an integral part of in the clinic treatment. As far as hydration, taping (which does nothing anyway), and on the scene emergency response (which once again usually a doctor and an EMT squad is on scene anyway) an ATc is a cheaper alternative to a PT. But I cannot think of anything that an ATC knows that a Ortho minded PT does not? In fact I really do not get why you feel that way about an ATC being a "residency" of sorts? What greater knowledge is there to gain? Have you ever taken any ATc courses? They are VERY watered down PT treatment courses, with no foundation as to the why and biomechanical approach to PT. SOmetimes I see that the "older" PTs, the BSPT typically, had mre of a treatment training and less of a Dx training of PT. If someone walks in the door with a meniscus tear, a PT should check the whole chain to find out why the tear occurred or merely why is an old tear flared up? A good biomechanical eval looking at hip and knee and ankle and foot mechanics with treatment focusing on normalizing the mechanics to relieve stress off the flared up meniscus must be done. Sure you do things to bring down inflammation, but are you going ot change that meniscus integrity? No, but can you possibly reduce the inflammation by relieving excess mechanical forces, sure. Then after the imflammation comes down then you can strengthen the knee to help restore any lost motor control or proprio, and retrain the knee to go back to sport....now let's take this from an ATC view: meniscus tear according to doc, i'll do stim and ice and us, and some exercises. Now on the surface treatment can look similar, but the biomechanical whole body approach cannot be attained without the PT viewpoint due to our training....ok I am rambling you have struck a nerve for some reason..gotta run-
ps, dont get yor atc
get your scs
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 5, 2004 12:28:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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Well, I just cannot agree...so there will be differing opinions.
I have found that the ATC's that I have worked with in an "on field" role (not an ortho clinic role) have been superb and certainly have outclassed the PT's I have seen (even MYSELF when I was a practicing PT). They are far more focused on the ACUTE injury and ACUTE injury treatment than PTs (as outpatient ortho PT's and SCS PT's are taught to see and treat in the "sub acute" phase...the clinic environment).
I have been impressed with the ATC's ability to splint. I have been impressed with the ATC's ability to respond to MORE than orthopedic concerns...concerns from acute allergic reactions to cardiac arrest. They are acutely aware of concussions and return to play requirements...that is what they do!
In the rehab setting the PT reigns supreme...but for acute on field training and strictly sports medicine an ATC is a fantastic choice.
Furthermore, a PT,ATC makes an EVEN BETTER SCS, and you can pursue the SCS at ANY time. The Athletic Training degree is a defined, structured, intense program (a simplified approach to a "residency", much more structured than a SCS). It is a degree with oral and written examination. I see the SCS as simply a feather in the cap.
This discussion should have nothing to do with "turf protection"...
To me, a hiring physician, a PT, ATC is a qualification that is difficult to beat for flexibility and knowledge base! A PT, ATC with SCS is even better.
_____________________________
Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 5, 2004 5:51:00 PM
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UTDC
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I was curious about the SCS certification. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this merely required a written examination with some basic first aid thrown in. Is there more to it than that?
Jeff
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 5, 2004 7:11:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
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From: West Palm Beach
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nope except 2000 hours shown in sports related field which usually equals shadowing an atc for 2000 hours. Like I said, we'll agree to disagree Dr. Wagner...
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 5, 2004 8:10:00 PM
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UTDC
Posts: 222
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So there are PT's out there that spend a full year shadowing an ATC for 40 hours a week? I find that a little hard to believe.
I was under the impression that a PT's experience in outpatient ortho, etc qualified for the 2000 hours.
Thanks,
Jeff
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 6, 2004 4:59:00 AM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
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From: West Palm Beach
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it sure does, as long as it is predominantly sports related, you cannot get 2000 hours for snf, neuro, etc....for example lets say you in a marketing ploy helped out an MD at the sideline of the local highscool football games.....which we did, which was good marketing by the way....those are hours....and i also do not think that they expect, nor want you gaining these hours in one year...
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 6, 2004 6:47:00 AM
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UTDC
Posts: 222
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Gotcha.
Thanks,
Jeff
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 8, 2004 8:48:00 PM
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ptdan23
Posts: 224
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From: Orlando, FL
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I do agree with most of what Dr. Wagner is saying. PT is king in the clinic for all phases of treatment but as far as on the field tx and assessment that is the domain of the ATC. That was my primary interest in obtaining that certification/degree. The difficulty I am having is finding an athletic training program where I would not have to go full-time. Being single, this is not really feasible.
Dan, PT.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 8, 2004 10:06:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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Have you called all the programs in your area? I would expect you would have to do part time PT in order to complete the ATC...
You could still get 40 hrs in weekly as a PT by working on the weekends plus a few afternoons or evening clinic hours.
_____________________________
Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 9, 2004 5:36:00 AM
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ptdan23
Posts: 224
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From: Orlando, FL
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Dr. Wagner,
I called UCF (University of Central Florida) and s/w the director there and he told me that I would basically need to take 2 yrs off to complete the program. I heard their is a new director now so I may need to give him a call and see if he is more flexibile.
Dan, PT.
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 9, 2004 6:10:00 AM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
Joined: May 8, 2004
From: West Palm Beach
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now a days you really need t go full time for atc, but like i said, do the ends justify the means? what will you get out of another BS degree? PAid 20 an hour to do games? If you LONG to be on the field, and SCS allows you to do so both knowledge wise and legally, so still don't get the need for the ATC...
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 9, 2004 7:18:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1242
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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I wish you the best of luck...I don't know if i buy the fact of doing nothing but an ATC for 2 years as I worked in PT school part time, and even some people work in med school part time.
I think you could make it work without much problem, you can find time to work PT part time.
Do what is best for you.
_____________________________
Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 9, 2004 11:31:00 AM
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USAPT
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Joined: January 14, 2004
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FLAOrthoPT,
You call yourself a professional and speak of other professions like that? I am disappointed in your response and lack of knowledge. Why are you so anti-ATC, did you try for it and fail?? I am a DPT, ATC and have had my AT license for 6+ years. The AT is a licensed professional recognized by the AMA. I do agree the SCS is a valid Certification, but it cannot replace the ATC on the field. And no, the FL law states that a licensed ATC and not a PT are to provide AT coverage at a sporting event.
Covering a game gives you an excitement that just doesn't come in the clinic and I am glad to have dual credentials. I don't have much more to say to you, except that the more you attack another profession, the more incompetent and unprofessional you look as an individual. Have a good day.
_____________________________
Jason, PT
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Re: PT looking for ATC program - August 9, 2004 5:21:00 PM
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ptdan23
Posts: 224
Joined: November 6, 2003
From: Orlando, FL
Status: offline
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USAPT,
Just out of curiosity, what FL states that a PT cannot provide on-field coverage? Have you worked at professional level of sports? How is the relationship between MD, PT and AT?
Dr. Wagner,
I have a friend who is a PT/ATC, she got her AT first and then went on for her PT degree. I was talking to her about it and she doesn't think I would still be able to work and go to school. She says it is too hour intensive...class in AM, on field hours in PM and w/e's.
Dan, PT.
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