|
|
Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics?
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 24, 2005 4:17:00 PM
|
|
|
JSPT
Posts: 282
Joined: April 19, 2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
The clinic I work at recently had a 10+ year employee leave to start his own clinic in the same town. We have heard from several current patients that he has called them at home and offered to see them in their homes or have them come to his house for continued treatment.
He has even gone so far as to call previously discharged patients whom he knew were having surgery to ask them to come to his new clinic for treatment.
Can anyone count the things wrong with this? Don't state laws, not to mention ethical codes, forbid such practices?
_____________________________
JS
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 24, 2005 4:47:00 PM
|
|
|
jma
Posts: 2405
Joined: August 24, 2000
From: NY
Status: offline
|
Wanting to branch out and start their own business? Who doesn't want that? I'm not sure about the laws and ethics talking specifically about this. However, in one of my old jobs, the owner actually put a stipulation in the contract, where no one who works for him can open shop within 10 miles of any of his offices. Of course, no one signed it either.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 24, 2005 5:38:00 PM
|
|
|
Diane
Posts: 1506
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
|
Is it lack of direct access that makes clinics feel so possessive of patients?
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 25, 2005 1:06:00 AM
|
|
|
JSPT
Posts: 282
Joined: April 19, 2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
I actually applaud the clinician for striking it out on his own. It was time for him to run his own show, and he had the guts to do so. But calling current patients at home to get them to switch facilities? Seems pretty unethical to me.
_____________________________
JS
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 25, 2005 1:12:00 AM
|
|
|
JSPT
Posts: 282
Joined: April 19, 2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
jma: you mentioned a form of a "no compete clause"; are these actually enforceable?
I have heard from several management-level PT's that unless it has been proven that a PT takes a job at a clinic with the explicit intention of "stealing" that clinic's business practices, courts will not enforce such a clause.
_____________________________
JS
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 25, 2005 2:42:00 AM
|
|
|
SJBird55
Posts: 2430
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
I just opened up a clinic a 1/2 mile down the road from the hospital clinic I worked in for 6 years. I did "steal" a couple patients from them, but it wasn't because I actually did anything.
One guy walked into my clinic and didn't want to have therapy at the hospital site. (Technically, the main reason was because I had treated him 3 or 4 years ago for another problem and if I were a betting person, he only wanted to return to me so that he could continue harassing and teasing me.) And then, another guy recently had had physical therapy at their site, but complained that they didn't meet his needs, so the specialist referred him to me.
I don't think I could go as low as to try to snag patients currently being treated down the road because it goes against my philosophy of patient-practitioner relationship. The patient is already established with some other practitioner at the moment, and that may be the best thing for the patient. Now... if a current patient of the hospital walked into my clinic and wanted to see what I had to offer and wanted to "compare" so to speak and then the patient decided that the hospital site just wasn't what the patient really wanted and wanted to switch, well, I'll take 'em! But I wouldn't initiate that kind of situation - only because I'd really have to potentially put on some act and really work at winning that patient over compared to if the patient initiated it.
I do have a goal of being productive all my clinical work days... so technically, I probably will be "stealing" patients from them, but not in an underhanded, sneaky way. The "stealing" will come based on the fact that there is now a little bit of competetion in town. :) And, it will be kind of cool to take business from the hospital, because my supervisors really felt that I was a pain because I challenged and questioned too many things... well, now I'll do things the way I want and we'll see how it goes. I did go through the phone book and snag all the names of people I know and people I have treated so I can send out a mass mailing...
I also don't think that it would be wrong to personally contact discharged patients who will require surgery to let them know that there is another option in town for physical therapy services.
What is actually going to be the most difficult for me is answering curious questions. Like... well, why did you leave the hospital? Or... for example, the guy that wasn't satisfied with the hospital services - he was being treated by my previous supervisor and I KNOW how she and the other practitioners practice.. (and he was right on with his complaint, frustration and observations). It will be quite difficult for me to hold my tongue and not really reply to patient comments who will compare previous services there in town to my services. It will be in my best interest to actually lie and not provide any rationale for complaints and redirect the conversation.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 25, 2005 6:05:00 AM
|
|
|
jma
Posts: 2405
Joined: August 24, 2000
From: NY
Status: offline
|
Well JSPT, since this was a private company, I guess the owner could put down what he wanted. Legally, if everyone signed it, then I guess he would have some legality to it, especially if his workers were planning to branch on their own and ask patients they previously treated to go to their own clinic.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 25, 2005 6:23:00 AM
|
|
|
Diane
Posts: 1506
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
|
(SJ, congratulations!!)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 25, 2005 10:07:00 AM
|
|
|
FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
Joined: May 8, 2004
From: West Palm Beach
Status: offline
|
I do not think it is so kind to do, but I do think it is ethical. One thing you could or they could learn from this is one marketing technique I used to do, which was send postcards to EVERY patient I had in the past 3 years reminding them that we appreciated them coming to see us, and reminding them of our services and that we remember them if they'd remember us the next time they see a doc and need therapy to request to come back. So, if this is something your clinic was not doing and this guy took the intiative to do it, then so be it, maybe you an learn fromt his, and then he'd never be able to beat you to the punch. On another note, I am pretty sure those non competes are VERY enforceable if someone is willing to take it to court that is.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 25, 2005 10:09:00 AM
|
|
|
tr6454
Posts: 60
Joined: March 6, 2004
Status: offline
|
I've a good friend who has a massage practice and one of her employees (of 10 years) was stolen by a physician practice that wanted to offer massage along with botox injections. Of course the MD's could pay more salary since massage was a loss leader for them. Now my friend is hurting since the clients that she had originally developed and then let her employee take over, have now followed to the MD shop. If my friend the owner can hang on long enough the employee may return, sacrificing money for a better work environment, but now she understands why a non-compete is so important in business.
JSPT - truly outrageous. People justify their questionable behavior in many ways. Since you have known this individual for so long - were there any other clues? previous ? decision making?
Yes, SJ congratulations. You have not stolen patients from a PT owned private practice but rather have stood up for your principles that you believe in. A hospital has a steady stream of patients no matter what. A guaranteed market. You have none of that and have taken on great risk. I'm curious, as your business grows and you hire more PTs will you just wing it like JSPT and hope for the best? or have a contractual arrangement with your employees?
_____________________________
Terry
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 25, 2005 2:02:00 PM
|
|
|
SJBird55
Posts: 2430
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
Thanks, Diane and Terry.
Truthfully, I haven't taken on that great of a risk. Politically, the hospital is closing the hospital-owned family practice in town. There are 2 family physicians and one nurse practitioner that are of course pissed (putting it nicely). They will be opening their own private family practice in the beginning of July. So far, the hospital-owned physical therapy site will stay in town. The only weird thing is that the physicians WILL be in the same building as the hospital physical therapy clinic (there's my risk). But... the physicians will not be recommending the hospital services to their patients - their group practice name is very, very close to my clinic's name... so, I'm assuming and rolling the die and hoping that they'll send patients my way instead of the hospital services. In about a month, I'll know if the politics are as I am assuming them to be. And, frankly, patients deserve a higher quality of care than what was provided by the hospital. I've had quite a few patients tell me that I should open my own clinic... now's the time. If I didn't do it, I think there could have been a chance for someone else to do it. Why not it be me?
I believe at most I'd only hire on one part-time physical therapist. I'm pretty picky, so I don't forsee hiring anyone in the next couple of years - besides the fact, I've got to grow the business to justify another therapist. In the mean time, I'd like to put together some type of "thing" that evaluates competency and would help me to evaluate competency before I hire anyone. I'd consider some kind of partnership of sorts after a certain amount of time so that whoever was to come in would be for the long-term. And, the person would need to fit in with the community and what people in my town expect. I believe I'd wing it and cross my fingers. Generally, if you keep people happy, treat them right and strive to meet their needs both professionally and personally the person isn't going to be wanting to leave. And, also, if you give the person some professional control, what more can anyone ask? I for one hate to be micromanaged. I like and firmly believe in accountability and responsibility. Also, I would highly doubt that someone would open up another practice in our town... THAT would be even riskier than what I did.
Yes, you can fight those non-competes, but the time and money to fight them supposedly isn't worth it in the end (from what I have been told in particular regarding a family physician situation).
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 27, 2005 10:43:00 PM
|
|
|
goodlooks58
Posts: 425
Joined: October 21, 2002
From: CA
Status: offline
|
As per an attorney in California: If your ex-employee is stealing trade secrets e.g. a list of current or past patients, MD list, your policy and procedure manual etc. and calls up all the patients on the list then you have a strong case against your ex-employee. If on the other hand your ex-employee sends a grand opening flyer to all the residences of your town and all the MDs in your town then that is considered OK. This is becuase your ex is just trying to drum up business the old fashioned way.
Non compete clauses do not stand in court generally, however, trade secret stealing is not ok. Other states may have different points of view.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 28, 2005 4:38:00 AM
|
|
|
paulpt
Posts: 164
Joined: May 31, 2005
Status: offline
|
I was wondering the source of the patient data. Did this data - the phone #'s and addresses of patients - get 'stolen' from the prior facility? Does this violate policy (as stated above) or does it violate privacy act?
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 28, 2005 4:49:00 AM
|
|
|
Ref_in_Rehab
Posts: 8
Joined: May 9, 2004
From: Idaho
Status: offline
|
A former co-worker of mine left our hospital based OP clinic about 1 year ago to go work for a competing clinic. Turns out he promised his new employer an instant stream of new patients. He did this by taking the patient's charts home, contacting them, their physicians, and case managers, and setting up appointment times at the other clinic.
Two months later after he ticked of his new employer he decided to open up his own shop, and promptly did the same thing.
Is that illegal? I'm sure he violated some HIPAA or common sense patient privacy principle by using that info solely for personal gain.
Whatever the legal ramifications, he sure did burn bridges with most of the PT's in town and the largest group of family practice docs will not refer to him.
Sean
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - June 28, 2005 9:01:00 PM
|
|
|
goodlooks58
Posts: 425
Joined: October 21, 2002
From: CA
Status: offline
|
This seems like it is illegal and this PT can be questioned in court and likely to get in trouble. This behavior of stealing the patients is illegal (just my PT opinion).
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - July 4, 2005 7:17:00 PM
|
|
|
Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
Status: offline
|
It certainly seems illegal and certainly unethical. He took confidential information that he obtained while working for an employer and used it to hurt that employer and for his own financial gain. This violates both employee/employer privilege and patient privacy.
For all of those people that believe non-compete clauses are just a company's way of holding a hammer over your head here is a perfect example of why they may want them.
There is certainly nothing wrong with accepting prior patients but the method he used is dishonest.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - July 24, 2005 12:55:00 PM
|
|
|
Augustine5I
Posts: 28
Joined: April 11, 2004
From: NJ
Status: offline
|
A similiar thing happened at a clinic I worked at......the senior PT/office manager left to work at another place down the road.
Well, she left on a Friday.......and so did her schedule. Which could be found down the road on the next Monday.
As far as I know, you cannot solicit clients. i.e. "come to my place, it's better and I can reduce you copay". But, you can respond to clients that ask where you are going?
That is why it may be good policy to let the therapist go as soon as he/she gives notice (paid of course). "Walk them to the door" as they say. This is common in many professions where the possibility of "stealing" any information, including client data, is possible.
Unfortunately, if the therapist is slick enough, he/she will have taken the data long before they even gave notice. Buy why take the chance.
Tom
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.colonialpt.com]www.colonialpt.com[/URL]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - July 24, 2005 1:11:00 PM
|
|
|
jma
Posts: 2405
Joined: August 24, 2000
From: NY
Status: offline
|
I wonder if anyone who has "felt" that they had their patients taken away by former employees, filed anything because of it. Never heard of it and if there were, what was the outcome? Curious.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - July 24, 2005 1:30:00 PM
|
|
|
Augustine5I
Posts: 28
Joined: April 11, 2004
From: NJ
Status: offline
|
JMA
The incident I spoke of happened at a big corporation. If they could have sued or something...they probably would.
Therefore, either solicitation is either hard to prove or not worth the effort.
Afterall, what is there to gain. The patients are already gone and discharged by the time it goes before a judge. And what is a reasonable punishment for something like this?
My guess is that it is both hard to prove and not worth the time and aggravation.
Tom
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.colonialpt.com]www.colonialpt.com[/URL]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is this outrageous, or fair business tactics? - August 18, 2005 1:35:00 PM
|
|
|
JSPT
Posts: 282
Joined: April 19, 2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
While we're on the subject of leaving to start your own clinic, how do people get the funding?
Other than one's own savings, are there loans, ways to solicit investors, other avenues I'm not aware of?
_____________________________
JS
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
0.141
|
Printable Version
