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Free weights versus Nautilus
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Free weights versus Nautilus - April 7, 2005 6:05:00 AM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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I have read that strength gains are achieved better with free weights versus Nautilus and this is why the professionals prefer the free weights. One argument to why the free weights were better is that we have to stabilize the weight more during the repetitions and thus utilize more muscles to achieve this resulting in better strength gains. Is this true?
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Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 7, 2005 6:20:00 AM
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jma
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I agree. However, I like the concept of machines that use cable column resistance for concentric and eccentric workouts.
JMA
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 7, 2005 10:43:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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I think without question free weights are better.
I'll look up some references and post them soon.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 7, 2005 5:54:00 PM
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jma
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Oops, in terms of the question asked, yes, free weights are better
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 8, 2005 4:45:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Every reference I have found shows consistent results:
Higher force production and %MVC in free weight activities vs weight machines.
No difference in injury potential or incidence between the two modes is reported in the literature for gym or rehab applications.
(Unless you're talking about home resistance training, where most injuries cited are head/throat/chest trauma from a weighted bar - overdoing the bench press).
Send me an email if you're interested, I'll forward you some articles refrencing the above.
As an aside for rehabilitation -- I like free weights because they can be simulated at home with either home weights or household objects, and don't require gym attendance.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 8, 2005 4:49:00 AM
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jma
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Definitely, machines for home resistance training to help prevent serious injuries.
JMA
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 8, 2005 10:49:00 AM
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krpowell
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Cautionary tale Jason alludes to turned tragic a few weeks back...
"David Little, a durable linebacker for the Pittsburgh Steelers who was voted to the Pro Bowl in 1990, died while weightlifting at home in Miami. He was 46.
Little had heart disease, and a cardiac fluttering..."
http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm3352_20050322.htm
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 8, 2005 2:44:00 PM
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jma
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The article did not state whether this athlete knew about his condition or not before the incident. Unfortunate.
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 11, 2005 8:14:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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jma-
actually, my point of citing that research was to specifically NOT encourage machines for home workouts. There isn't an injury difference between machines and free weights. The very few deaths associated with musculoskeletal injury just happen to be the same mechanism. As long as you are training smart and not doing maximal lifts without a spotter, free weights are cheaper and much more variable in what they can offer.
I always recommend them over any machine to patients and clients.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 11, 2005 12:23:00 PM
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karmzack
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Of course you could eliminate the crush injuries from bench press by using dumbells. I like to think that you also get more dynamic stabilizer involvement. I do use machines to tightly control ROM in certain patients.
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Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 12, 2005 2:57:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Yes, agreed rehabbing an injury is entirely a different animal, early on.
And we should be encouraging training movements with varied stresses, to include Dumbbell, Barbell, body weight, etc.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 15, 2005 6:57:00 PM
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coreconcepts
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For neuromuscular pathway development, balance, strength and power development - free weights reign supreme. Further, fixed machine use can promote movement pattern overload over time whereas free weight (with their unique freedom of motion) do not. I don't think machines are completely without merit, however. I happen to think pulleys are quite effective, particularly for posterior exercises for the lats, rhomboids and posterior delts. I think the basis of resistacne training programs should consist of compound free weight movements that challenge the brain/muscle pathways. Variety is of course important, and other modes such as; body weight, cables, tubing, machines and other tools such as; medicine balls, stability balls, foam rollers, balance boards can be integrated.
Machine weight training does appear, however to be equal to free weights when it comes to health benefits (disease risk modification) - including; osteoporosis, diabetes, body fat, insulin sensitivity, CAD, blood lipids, etc.
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 19, 2005 2:17:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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core-
Agreed, but if you have a reference showing anything (besides a vegan diet) can reduce or prevent CAD, then please post it, I would love to see it.
I am not aware of anything besides the strict lifestyle I mention above that influences CAD, it is pretty notorious, even among healthy people. I was at a Sports Medicine lecture the other day and the physician giving it even said "Yeah, nothing saves you from CAD..." to illustrate the point.
:)
I agree with your other citations, but we should also mention that studies on osteoporosis and weight training have mixed results currently, especially the interventional studies.
Good summary, though, thanks.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 19, 2005 10:13:00 AM
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coreconcepts
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Hi Jason - good call on the CAD thing. I don't think weight training in of itself is responsible for improving CAD. Having said that, I don't think a vegan diet will exclusively reduce CAD risk factors in the absence of exercise.
In any case - good catch. Allow me to refine my list, and rephrase. Resistance training may be effective in the following cases:(I'll provide references for the first 2 - after that, anybody is welcome to ask me for specific references for the others)
- osteoporosis(1,2,3)
- osteoarthritis (4)
- sarcopenia
- lower back pain
- insulin resistance
- resting metabolic rate
- glucose metabolism
- blood pressure
- body fat
- GI transit time
- parkinson disease (improved stride length, wlaking velocity, postural angles)
1. Carter, N.D et. al. (2001)Results of a 10 week strength and balance program to reduce fall risk factors: a randomized controlled trial in 65-75 yr-old women with osteoporosis. British Journal of Sports Medicine, 35 (5), 348-351.
2. Huuskonen, J. et. al. (2001). Regular physical exercise and bone mineral density: a four-year randomized trial in middle-aged men. The DNASCO study. Osteoporosis International.
3. Kerr, D. et. al. (2001). Resistance training over 2 years increases bone mass in calcium-replete post-menopausal women. Journal of Bone and Mineral Research.
4. Clyman, B. (2001) Exercise in the treatment of Osteoarthritis. Current Rheumatology reports 3 (6), 520-523.
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 19, 2005 10:36:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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I think that's a good list.
Keep in mind for every two positive studies re: osteoporosis, I can find one showing no change.
Doesn't mean we should abandon the practice, but does mean we should know there is some controversy about it.
It's good we're talking about this stuff, especially in the interest of overall health.
I'll start another topic on health effects of exercise.
Specifically, will address the CAD issue as well.
Thanks.
Jason.
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - April 19, 2005 10:44:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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CoreC-
Briefly, a vegan(whole foods, plant-based diet - no meat or dairy products/eggs) has been shown to reduce both the incidence and the progression of CAD.
There are volumes of evidence for this in terms of epidemiological studies, and some significant evidence in interventional studies.
Exercise alone has not been shown to be beneficial for CAD.
Your statement about a vegan diet not reducing risk factors is curious. Surely consumption of saturated fat is well known as a risk factor for CAD, and a vegan diet reduces that. Epidemiological studies show that those on a mostly vegan diet have extremely low rates of CAD, even when they are relatively inactive.
Hey, I'm all for exercise, too, but we shouldn't oversell it if the research isn't there, right?
I don't want to get off-topic too much, so please anyone join in on the health effects thread if interested.
I do have some interesting citations comparing free weight exercise to machine exercise in terms of muscle activation, etc.
I'll post some later.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - June 21, 2005 3:06:00 PM
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anoopbal
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[QUOTE]I do have some interesting citations comparing free weight exercise to machine exercise in terms of muscle activation, etc.
[/QUOTE]Could you post them, Jason
Thanks
Anoop
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - June 22, 2005 5:59:00 AM
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aquatherapysc
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I would love to read the articles comparing free weights to nautilus equipment as well. I am full agreement that free weights are superior when trying to achieve strength. When training with free weights, you have a greater range of motion which inevitably works larger portions of individual muscle groups more intensely. I have dabbled in competitive weight lifting in the past and have always relied on free weights for building strength and mass. Recently I have injured my shoulder and had to rely on nautilus machines for training. I found that my gains in both strength and mass were fairly insignificant when compared with free weight training. I think the nautilus machines are very benefical for those looking to tone as opposed to build strength and mass.
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - June 22, 2005 7:18:00 AM
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anoopbal
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I would free weights are better than machines for athletes. For bodybuilders, not much difference.
And I am not sure if anybody can quite convincingly prove that free weights are better for athelets than machines. I would love to get a hold of a study whcih shows this. I remeber one guy in my coollege who compared free wights and machines and couldnt find any differnce in T-test time, 40 yard test and stabilty tets.
Anoop
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Re: Free weights versus Nautilus - June 22, 2005 7:25:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Sure, here you go...
"A comparison of muscle activity between a free weight and machine bench press."
McCaw, Friday. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (JSCR) 1994
Point/Counter Point article (with good citations listed)
"Free Weights vs Machines" Strength and Conditioning Journal DEC 1999
Roundtable Discussion (with good citations listed)
Machines vs Free Weights" Strength and Conditioning Journal DEC 2000
"Comparison of Muscle Force Production Using the Smith Machine and Free Weights for Bench Press and Squat Exercises"
Cotterman, Darby, Skeller
JSCR 2005
That's a start. Being an NSCA member and having search access to the journals is key. Highly recommended for anyone interested in this sort of thing. Even if you don't choose to take a certification exam, you still can have benefits of membership...
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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