|
|
Exercise Selection
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Exercise Selection - May 13, 2005 9:43:00 AM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
What should be the basis for exercise selection for muscle growth or hypertrophy?
Do we need incline and flat bench press to maximally activate the chest muscle? Do we need both rows and lat pulldowns to fully activate the back muslces?
Thanks
Anoop
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 16, 2005 5:06:00 AM
|
|
|
JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
|
Bodybuilders have long known that the secret to hypertrophy is to lift relatively light weights for multiple repetitions, multiple sets, and multiple different exercises for the same muscle group.
So if hypertrophy is the goal, multiple exercises using multiple sets of relatively light weight is recommended.
Let's say 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps per exercise as an approximate.
Your second question of "activation" is different from your first of "hypertophy".
EMG shows us that motor units are activated more or less in different exercises.
Reference EMG research on shoulder muscles (plug in Kevin Wilk's name, famous PT, and that should give you loads to look at) for examples of this.
Your question of exercises depends on which muscles you are trying to "activate".
Most of us focus on movements, not muscles, for general fitness. In rehab there is a need to focus on particular muscles sometimes, and these EMG studies can be helpful in designing programs.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 16, 2005 10:50:00 AM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
Thanks, Justin.
Consider we need maximum growth of the chest muscles. How many different exercises do we really need to ensure that we ACTIVATED all the fibers in the muscle?
I do incline press for the clavicle portion and dumbell press for sternal portion.I feel like that I have covered the whole pec fibers with these two exercises. Or am I wrong? Are they fibers which only becomes active at different angles
Anoop
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 16, 2005 11:02:00 AM
|
|
|
JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
|
It's "Jason". :)
I actually couldn't tell you about the pec major. I'm not aware of any EMG data on it, so I couldn't comment.
It doesn't happen to be an important thing to know for rehabilitation!
:)
That's a good question, I'd have to search and get back to you on it...but now, have to get home and do some lifting myself!
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 16, 2005 2:37:00 PM
|
|
|
jma
Posts: 2312
Joined: August 24, 2000
From: NY
Status: offline
|
Interesting topic. It seems that there isn't just one or two exercises that activates all the muscle fibers. Thats probably why are there so many different exercises for developing the pecs in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 16, 2005 2:47:00 PM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
[QUOTE]Interesting topic. It seems that there isn't just one or two exercises that activates all the muscle fibers. Thats probably why are there so many different exercises for developing the pecs in the first place.[/QUOTE]This is my reasining regarding why I picked only two exercises.
From what little I have learned from biomechanics textbooks, Pec major can be divided into sternal portion and clavicular portion.
Both portions are equally activated when you perform a flat bench.But, the clavicular portion is emphasized or the sternal portion is deemphasizeded in an incline press. Bcos activation of the clavicular portion in a incline press would result in arms being pulled in and down, thereby making it unable to move the bar in the proper plane of motion.
If I were to pick another exercise, I would pick an isolation exercise to maximize the ROM and hence the stretch, like dumbell flyes.
Anoop
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 16, 2005 2:50:00 PM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
[QUOTE]So if hypertrophy is the goal, multiple exercises using multiple sets of relatively light weight is recommended[/QUOTE]By the way, besides anecdotal evidence, there s no scientific evidence to show 8-12 rep range is the optimal for hypertrophy. In fact, the research is showing lower reps to induce same or greater hypertrophy than high reps.
Anoop
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 1:33:00 AM
|
|
|
JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
|
Anoop-
I think there is too much of a range for these training variables to be sure. The range I quoted was the best information available to my knowledge and reflects somewhat of a consenus among those in the strength/conditioning field.
Keep in mind that most studies on weight training are done on UNTRAINED subjects.
Funny, but we all know to expect significant gains both in hypertrophy and strength rather quickly in that population.
If you've got some citations showing a different paradigm for maximal hypertrophy, please post it, I would love to see it.
It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, nor the last...
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 2:48:00 AM
|
|
|
Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1106
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
|
I always think back to my friend the cyclist when considering the quads-size or "bulking up".
He never, never, did anything specific in the weight room for his quads - no squats, no legpress, no curls, no smith station nada.
He rode his bike. Many miles daily. Low resistance per revolution. Yet QUADS!! They'd look good on a bear. Big as all get out - from low resistance, high reps. Seems to support Jason's suggestion to hypertrophy...
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 3:33:00 AM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
[QUOTE]If you've got some citations showing a different paradigm for maximal hypertrophy, please post it, I would love to see it.[/QUOTE]DIFFERENT RESISTANCE TRAINING PROTOCOLS AND SKELETAL MUSCLE FIBER HYPERTROPHY.Medicine
and Science in Sports and Exercise journal(1998, 30,5) Crill, M.; Campos, G.; Staron, R. S.; Hagerman, F. C. ; Luecke, T.; Bailey, T.; Kraemer, W. J. ; Hikida, R. S.
The Low rep group had 18.5% hypertrophy while the Intermediate group had 17.6% hypertrophy
Muscular adaptations in response to three different resistance-training regimens: specificity of repetition maximum training zones.
Campos GE, Luecke TJ, Wendeln HK, Toma K, Hagerman FC, Murray TF, Ragg KE, Ratamess NA, Kraemer WJ, Staron RS.
Gross measures of exercise-induced muscular hypertrophy. Weiss LW, Coney HD, Clark FC. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2000 Mar;30(3):143-8.
I have written an article( two parts) about load and hypertrophy. If you want to read, I can email you the link.
Anoop
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 3:35:00 AM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
[QUOTE]He rode his bike. Many miles daily. Low resistance per revolution. Yet QUADS!! They'd look good on a bear. Big as all get out - from low resistance, high reps. Seems to support Jason's suggestion to hypertrophy... [/QUOTE]YOu have see ony one. I have seen many a cyclists or endurance trainees with skinny legs. n=1 doesnt prove anything conclusively.
Anoop
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 3:44:00 AM
|
|
|
Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1106
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
|
You're right Anoop. I should have said that he was one of the cyclists I have seen; I saw many. I just think of him, since he is my friend... Note that I said: "Seems to support"... Never told you it was proof. Your 18.5 vs 17.6 is not exactly strong evidence either - I'll have to read the others. I just post my experiences and cases - never said it was proof. Clinical experience (22 years) and case descriptions are fair illustrations in a discussion, I thought.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 3:45:00 AM
|
|
|
Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1106
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
|
BTW, I am a good long distance cyclist with skinny legs...
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 7:44:00 AM
|
|
|
coreconcepts
Posts: 68
Joined: April 13, 2005
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
|
Anoop - couple of things.
First to your original question: It depends on what you want to get out of your workout. I think that putting together 2-3 different pec exercises on a chest day is perfectly adequate to satisfy the needs of 99% of weight trainers/bodybuilders. I see a lot of wasted minutes at the gym with people doing all 3 planes (flat, incline, decline) and then adding on push-ups, flys, 2-arm pull-overs to boot. There are studies that suggest multi-exercise protocols vs. multiset are more effective for maximal muscular recruitment.
Next, to your quote;
"By the way, besides anecdotal evidence, there s no scientific evidence to show 8-12 rep range is the optimal for hypertrophy. In fact, the research is showing lower reps to induce same or greater hypertrophy than high reps."
It is very difficult to cite "scientific evidence" for the effects of resistance training as there are so many different protocols and uncontrolled, concomitent factors, and hence few well-conducted, conclusive studies. Anectotal and clinical evidence in this case bodes well for weight training protocols, whereas it may not be acceptable in other scientific realms. I believe it important not to isolate and compartmentalize rep ranges (ie. 12-20 for endurance, 8-12 for hypertrophy, 3-6 for maximum strength). There is obviously going to be cross-over in each, with strength gain in a "hypertrophy" protocol and hypertrophy in a "strength" protocol. With the right genetics and a good periodization program, you can maximize hypertrophy by doing a solid 8-12 rep phase, and follow it up with a lower rep (3-6) maximum strength phase, and experience further hypertrophy - likely more than if you did only one in isolation. In any case, I think you will at some point be using both for optimal results (maybe in the same phase as a "mixed" phase). I suggest Tudor Bompa's "Serious Strength Training" for a detailed explanation for each phase.
Further, it comes down to factors other than just the volume. Look at the speed of movement, and the types of movement as an example (multi-joint vs. single joint). Rest between sets and rest days are also proving to be a crucial factor in terms of the effectiveness of each protocol. One should also look at pre and post workout nutrition, as well as the overall diet.
In short, it is important to take a holistic look at things, and try not to micromanage.
Alos, I agree with Sebastian - a less than 1% difference is statistically insignificant. And to his anectdote about his friend, I would venture to say that its purpose may have been more to emphasize the truth of individual discrepencies, more so than to state something as fact. (don't want to speak for him, though)
So finally, back to the original post - genetic potential is going to be a prominent factor, and despite the lack of hard evidence, my stance is that one would be wasting their time by doing 15+ sets of chest with 4 different exercises, when his/her time would be better spent balancing in some posterior chain-loading exercises. (but that's a whole other can of worms!)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 9:44:00 AM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
There is no study whatsoever to show that strength gains is greater than hypertrophy gains for low rep ranges. Nor there is a study to show that hypertrophy is dominant for 8-12 repetion than low reps.
There is no evidence to show that a powerlifter routine will induce more strength gains than hypertrophy gains. Or a hypertrophy routine will cause more hypertrophy than strength.
Why even periodization protocols followed by athletes and strength coaches all over the world for hundred years have different mesocycles for hypertophy and strength if the differene is not statistcally significant or if there wasn’t any research prior to prove the validity of having mesocycles ( with different rep ranges) for different adaptations to begin with? Or why a study to compare high rep and low rep when its already proven beyond any shadow of doubt (and established to get into NSCA and ACSM textbooks) through experience and anecdotes that high reps are optimal for hypertrophy.
I really dint want to bring this discussion in this forum. Had plenty of it in other fitness forums. Hopefully, I will learn something new.
Anoop
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 9:55:00 AM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
[QUOTE]First to your original question: It depends on what you want to get out of your workout. I think that putting together 2-3 different pec exercises on a chest day is perfectly adequate to satisfy the needs of 99% of weight trainers/bodybuilders. I see a lot of wasted minutes at the gym with people doing all 3 planes (flat, incline, decline) and then adding on push-ups, flys, 2-arm pull-overs to boot. There are studies that suggest multi-exercise protocols vs. multiset are more effective for maximal muscular recruitment.[/QUOTE]Do you have a link to those studies.
I am asking this questyion in this forum bcos I believe you all have a better understanding of muscles and their functions than people on other boards.
I have come across one study which showed regional hypertrophy can be induced. they ahowed how diferent studies showed regional hypertrophy of the quad muscles for leg extensions.But dont you guys think if you are using heavy weights (>85% 1RM) all fibers of the muscle has to activate? Considering the previous example of flat bench, if you are using a 3 RM all the fibers I belive should activate. Or are there any dormant fibers which can only be activated with other exercies ?
Thanks
Anoop
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 10:15:00 AM
|
|
|
JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
|
I think the activation of any given motor unit depends on several things, among them the training state of the individual, the plane of movement of the joint, the plane of movement of the exercise, and the orientation of the muscle fibers.
I think it is reasonable to assume that any muscle that crosses a joint might have a different set of motor units activate depending on the motion you were going through.
A joint with limited motion wouldn't be able to have as much variation.
For example: it might be hard to come up with different ways/angles to activate motor units in the gastrocnemius, whereas in the pec major (which can contribute to many different motions at a highly mobile joint) you might use different motions to pull them all in. Or to get the maximum number of motor units to fire and therefore, hypertrophy. If that is your goal.
Bodybuilders are a perfect example of this concept.
It has, unfortunately, little to do with rehabilitation or athletic performance, however...
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 17, 2005 9:35:00 PM
|
|
|
Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
Status: offline
|
I don't think you are going to get any better answers here regarding hypertrophy than you would elsewhere. I don't think anyone here is professionally interested in it, and I'm not even sure if anyone is personally interested in it. Certainly not compared to other sites that are obsessed with it. Ok, now here is my go at it.
I've wondered about this myself. I have read both opinions, that under a large load that all the fibers of the pec major are activated equally when performing an exercise, that since it is one muscle that different angles only change the biomechanical forces involved and doesn't change the fibers activated. If the load is sufficient then all the fibers are activated. Physiologically this makes sense to me. However, it sure feels different when doing them.
As to what reps. training programs are best for hypertrophy, well, I'll let the static contraction, HIT, superslow, centurions, and others battle it out. It would seem to me that if you stress the muscle hard enough, it is going to grow, no matter how you do it. I've read loads as low as 60% of MVC activate all fibers of a muscle. I would venture that the speed of movement can increase or decrease this. There is, of course, Mel Siff's differentation between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar growth, which might be of consideration. (These are not terms used in the scientific literature). You also have the genetic and trained differences in muscle fiber type. If you hav a preponderance of fast twitch muscle your response to activity is going to be different than slow twitch etc. That is why we have cyclists like Eric Heiden (if you are old enough to remember the Heidens) with tree trunk legs and some with bean poles.
So my final answer is that we don't need different exercises to fully activate any ONE muscle, but your question asked about the chest muscle and back muscles, which make up more than one muscle so I would say that to equally develop all the muscles of the chest or back and because some are prime movers and some are synergists that more than one movement per body part is needed.
My guess is that it really isn't rocket science, that every program has been successful for someone.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Exercise Selection - May 18, 2005 5:20:00 AM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
[QUOTE]I don't think you are going to get any better answers here regarding hypertrophy than you would elsewhere. I don't think anyone here is professionally interested in it, and I'm not even sure if anyone is personally interested in it.[/QUOTE]Agreed. But I feel this question is about activation as much as it is about hypertrophy. Hypertrophy comes only secondary to activation I beleive.
[QUOTE]If the load is sufficient then all the fibers are activated. Physiologically this makes sense to me. However, it sure feels different when doing them.[/QUOTE]I think there is a study often quoted to show that if you are using 85% 1RM all fibers are activated( That is, both Typoe 1 and Type 2).
[QUOTE]As to what reps. training programs are best for hypertrophy, well, I'll let the static contraction, HIT, superslow, centurions, and others battle it out. It would seem to me that if you stress the muscle hard enough, it is going to grow, no matter how you do it.[/QUOTE]I always belive and stilll belive that strength is a good indicator of LBM and is the best way to determine progress in a hypertrophy routine.In short, if you are gaining strength in whatever rep range, stick with it.
[QUOTE]There is, of course, Mel Siff's differentation between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar growth, which might be of consideration. (These are not terms used in the scientific literature).[/QUOTE]Good point. That I elive is the primary reason why people are more inclined to high reps. The glycogen and water accumulation due to he metabolic fatigue makes it defintely look bigger than if you were using low reps.
Been said, if you dont have any myofibrillar hypertrophy, dont exepect sarcoplasmic hypertrophy to make you look big. SH is always limited physically by the cell mebrane properties.
Another reason as oyu mentioned there are no scientific studies is mainly due to the measurmenet problems involved. SH cannot be detected wih the current muscle measurement techniques. But there are couple of studies which looked it.
[QUOTE]You also have the genetic and trained differences in muscle fiber type. If you hav a preponderance of fast twitch muscle your response to activity is going to be different than slow twitch etc[/QUOTE]I think training for afiber type is waste of time. There is one extensive reviw on muscle fiber typ ena dtraining. They concluded that there is alinear relatonship with load and both fiber types (even Type 1). They dint find anything (and most other studies)to show Type 1 grow more with high reps.
Also, the poetntial for growth for Type 1 is far less than Type 2 to focus your reps or training on Type 1. Just like Typoe 2 fibers get bigger, type 1 fibers get smaller to be more efficient. This is in context of hypertrophy and not performance.
[QUOTE]So my final answer is that we don't need different exercises to fully activate any ONE muscle, but your question asked about the chest muscle and back muscles, which make up more than one muscle so I would say that to equally develop all the muscles of the chest or back and because some are prime movers and some are synergists that more than one movement per body part is needed.[/QUOTE]Good point. I also think biarticulate muscles demand more than one exercise for full activation. A good example would be the flexor muscles of the ankle. Fro example, Bent knee for more stress on soleus. I thin jason was attemting to point something similiar.
Also I am not sure but I think innervation plays a role too. If a musle has more than one innervation, it can be activated compartmentally{ lower or upper abs?? sill confused).As you said there is alos a case of the speed of the moveemnt.I have noted in some studies fdiffrent fibers are recruited at different speeds. Different fibesr recruited for eccentric and concentric. But ,as you said, when the weight is around your 1RM mostof these diffrebnces pale out; all fibers have to recruited I guess.
Good points
Thanks
Anoop
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
0.109
|
Printable Version
