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Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise.
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Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 2, 2008 8:57:41 PM
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Kaden
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This came up in a discussion today in the clinic and believe it or not we could not agree.
I always considered closed chain but a colleague argued by the definition there needs to be a fixed point.
I know it doesn't really matter, but now it is just bugging me. How would others classify jumping or other plyos.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 2, 2008 9:37:46 PM
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Bournephysio
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It is most definitely an open chain but what is the point of the question? Is it just an academic question or are does your clinical decision making process depend on whether an exercise is open or closed chain? Our open versus closed chain definitions are a bastardization of the engineering definitions and are practically useless for determining the usefulness of an exercise.
Doug
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 2, 2008 10:16:25 PM
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Kaden
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purely an academic question. Thanks
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 2, 2008 10:22:52 PM
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VagusX
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Without getting into literature I would have to disagree with Bournephysio. I believe the activity to have components of both. From powering up a jump is CKC, adjustments made in the air are OKC and landing phase is CKC again.
quote:
Our open versus closed chain definitions are a bastardization of the engineering definitions and are practically useless for determining the usefulness of an exercise.
I'm sure that defintions the kinetic chain have been challenged, but OKC/CKC are useful descriptions to most PT's. I try to use a mixture of OKC and CKC exercises for different reasons on purpose. We know that OKC is the most effective way to strengthen a muscle at least related to quad strength. For lower extremities I use CKC exercises primarily for functional activities, and upper extremity CKC for scap and GH stabilization.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 2, 2008 10:34:18 PM
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TexasOrtho
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Calling an exercise open or closed chain is insufficient and can be misleading. I've been teaching this for about ten years and even faculty get caught up in this debate at time. The language has to be specific and terms operationally defined. If not the statement can become vague and/or misleading.
In the case of jumping-jacks, the contact phase is most definitely closed chain for the lower extremity with all the demands characteristic of a closed-chain system. However as soon as the toes depart the ground, the activity becomes open chain for the LE. One exercise with two distinct phases. Calling an exercise closed or open chain is misleading. It doesn't help that there is more than one distinct definition for closed and open chain. It confuses the heck out of students and doesn't often lead anywhere productive.
For example, is walking open or closed chain? Like Doug mentioned above, it can be an interesting mental exercise, but in the end has very little weight in practical terms. About eight years ago, when a buddy of mine and I wanted to get into a fist fight, we'd argue whether a pull-up can be considered a similar kinetic chain activity as a lat pull (same movements - different contexts). In the end this distintion makes no difference in the execution or prescription of the activity. Just get the general idea and move on to more pertinent clinical stuff.
< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- July 30, 2008 6:52:34 PM >
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 3, 2008 7:31:34 AM
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SJBird55
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HaHa... I never thought of jumping one way or another. It has components of both open chain and closed chain.
For the fun of it, ask your colleagues if they are talking vertical jump or long jump... if they say vertical jump, ask them how long is the hang time? (Like when you watch really, really good basketball players.) Then ask them if jumping off a diving board is the same as jumping on the ground. LMAO
Doug, where is your sense of humor?
Open and closed chain are useful - they save a whole lot of time typing to describe what one is doing!
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 3, 2008 7:34:51 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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definitely a mix.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 3, 2008 8:37:02 AM
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PTupdate.com
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Last night, I was both flying AND jumping.....yet was still lying on my bed....after standing in yard with neighbors and guzzling brewskies while the kids played in the yard. Was I open or closed chain?
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 3, 2008 1:42:47 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Like I said: "mixed".
Mouth: open chain - Standing in yard: closed chain. Flying and jumping: not saying "stop" early enough!
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 3, 2008 6:36:14 PM
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Bournephysio
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A true closed chain exercise requires two fixed points with moveable segments in between. You don't have that with a jump. You could try to say that the two feet are "fixed" to the ground before the jump so that phase is "closed chain" but where has that gotten us? Its meaningless.
"I try to use a mixture of OKC and CKC exercises for different reasons on purpose." Why not just say "I try to use a mixture of exercises for different reasons on purpose" Clear without any unnecessary and useless jargon. Show me a study that claims that OKC are better than CKC exercises for strengthening and I'll show you a flawed study that makes generalizations beyond what is supported by its methods.
CKC exercises are the most appropriate for post-acl surgery right? Well deceleration/cutting maneuvers would classically be considered a "CKC" exercise and are probably one of the most common acl injury mechanisms.
(Un)fortunately, you need to look at each exercise individually do determine if it is appropriate for your patient. There is no OKC/CKC shortcut.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 3, 2008 9:20:15 PM
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PT_Darren
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VagusX, I definetely agree with you on using CKC exercises as stabilization exercises, expecially in cases of instability (e.g. post ACL injury, shoulder dislocation). I also think OKC exercises are important. Especially related to sports. For example throwers. A high velocity open kinetic chain activity for the upper extremity. Therefore, you also need to advance from CKC to higher demand (higher velocity/acceleration/load) OKC exercises. One other thing, where do you get the idea that the OKC exercises are the most effective way to build quad strength? Are you thinking of any exercises specifically? I have trouble thinking that a leg extension exercise is any better at facilitating quad growth than a front squat. Enlighten me?
Darren
< Message edited by PT_Darren -- July 3, 2008 9:25:36 PM >
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 3, 2008 11:13:51 PM
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VagusX
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Bourne, I get what you are saying. Thanks for the definition. I don't think that you can refute OKC being a more effective strengthener tp CKC based on isokinetic testing. Whether strength is an indicator of improved function is an entire different subject.
PT_Darren. I don't have much info on UE, but there is plenty evidence to suggest OKC are better for stregthening.
A Comprehensive Rehabilitation Program With Quadriceps Strengthening in Closed Versus Open Kinetic Chain Exercise in Patients With Anterior Cruciate Ligament Deficiency
A Randomized Clinical Trial Evaluating Dynamic Tibial Translation and Muscle Function
Sofi Tagesson, RPT ,*, Birgitta Öberg, RPT, PhD, Lars Good, MD, PhD and Joanna Kvist, RPT, PhD
Results: There were no group differences in static or dynamic translation after rehabilitation. The OKC group had significantly greater isokinetic quadriceps strength after rehabilitation (P = .009). The hamstring strength, performance on the 1-repetition-maximum squat test, muscle activation, jump performance, and functional outcome did not differ between groups.
Conclusions: Rehabilitation with OKC quadriceps exercise led to significantly greater quadriceps strength compared with rehabilitation with CKC quadriceps exercise. Hamstring strength, static and dynamic translation, and functional outcome were similar between groups. Patients with ACL deficiency may need OKC quadriceps strengthening to regain good muscle torque.
and a few more...
Closed kinetic chain alone compared to combined open and closed kinetic chain exercises for quadriceps strengthening after anterior cruciate ligament reconstruction with respect to return to sports: a prospective matched follow-up study.
Davies, GJ. Descriptive Study Comparing OKC vs CKC Isokinetic Testing of the Lower Extremity in 200 Patients with Selected Knee Pathologies. Presented at WCPT Meeting, Washington, DC, June, 1995. Published in Proceedings, WCPT, June, 1995.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 4, 2008 11:27:37 AM
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john M
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Vagus,
Are you saying OKC are better specifically for quads in ACL patients only or generally for all knee pathologies?
Including meniscal injuries?
Going back to Open vs. Closed chain discussion. By BournePhysio's def'n there must be 2 fixed surfaces for a closed chain. Does a wall push-up fit the def'n even though the fixed surface's vectors are at 90 degrees to each other (feet on floor, arms on wall)?
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 4, 2008 1:25:16 PM
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Bournephysio
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VagusX, thanks for posting one of the articles that I was talking about. The second one was "CKC" and "OKC vs "CKC" so I'm not sure what your point was with that one. The third doesn't even look like is published. Back to the first one.
If you read a study that stated tomatoes were more nutritious than iceberg lettuce would you conclude that fruit were more nutritious than vegetables? So why would you conclude that OKC exercises were better than CKC from this study? It gets even worse unfortunately. The exercise programs from the two groups were very large containing many exercises that would traditionally be considered "closed chain" The difference was that one group had leg extension and hip extension and the other had single leg squats. No attempt was made to make sure that the force produced by the quads was similar. finally there were no differences in any measure except isokinetic knee extension. So the group that were trained to do knee extension were stronger at knee extension. Go figure.
This OKC/CKC stuff is terminally flawed and should just be abandoned.
Doug
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 4, 2008 5:49:17 PM
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TexasOrtho
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Amen to that Doug. It really gets a disproportionate amount of attention. Students and novice providers really get too hung up on minutia like this. It's an interesting exercise for about 10 minutes, then you realize there are more important things to learn.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 5, 2008 1:48:00 PM
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Kaden
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Okay, I really meant this as a simple poll like question. I was just curious to see what others thought. Never meant for it to be an open versus closed chain arguement and placing a level of importance on either one. Both have there place but ultimately classifying them is not to important in the PT world
I however am working on a classification project for an exercise kit to better place exercises in appropriate categories. One such task was classifying into open versus closed chain and that is why I polled the forum. I wanted to know where others would classify jumping.
However, in the big picture, I agree for the purpose of providing therapy services, it does not matter.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 5, 2008 2:27:58 PM
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SJBird55
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If any of you have heard Davies speak, it isn't a matter of whether OKC is better than CKC - it's more of a situation of determining what you want the patient to achieve. Determining whether you use OKC or CKC is dependent on what you are measuring and what you want to improve.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 6, 2008 9:52:59 PM
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jma
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I agree wtih that and that jumping is a mix of the two.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 7, 2008 12:31:44 AM
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Bournephysio
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Kaden, my point is that we shouldn't be using CKC or OKC to classify exercises. It useless. It should be abandoned.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 7, 2008 12:08:50 PM
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buckeye
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Kaden - You opened a can of worms. Glad it is sparking lively discussion. For your needs, I think the jumping exercise/activity can be classified based on what you are trying to achieve with the patient. For a typical ACL patient, the concern may be more with landing so it will be CKC. For an advanced long jump athlete, the coach may be more concerned about movement while in the air - more OKC concern. In general, for most 'rehab' patients in the clinic (if you must use the 'kinetic chain' names) CKC for jumping makes more sense since we are usually concerned about vertical/linear distance and landing rather than what happens in the air.
I doubt if there will ever be agreement on how to classify each exercise as OKC or CKC. There are mixed components in many exercises.
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