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Discouraged due to internet research and forums
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Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 7, 2007 11:47:49 PM
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aph401
Posts: 82
Joined: April 16, 2007
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I have to say, the more searching, googling, researching, and forum posting I've done, the less and less I feel about myself and my career decision. Even comments made by clinical instructors. If the DPT is unnecessary, too expensive for what it's worth, and PTs are never going to see a significant increase in salaries, then why am I doing this again?? I keep hearing about how it's not going to pay off and comments from older PTs who basically "feel sorry" for the students chasing this misguided degree and getting themselves eyeball deep in debt for it. The more I hear and read, the more I'm getting out of it to "look into PA school, look into nursing, look into ultrasound tech, consider MD". I keep hearing about all of the better options, all of the reasons not to pursue a DPT, all of the figures on PTs who end up pursuing other fields, all of the reasons that PT isn't the great career choice I once thought it was before I started researching. Now that I'm in it and flip-flopping is ultimately "too late", I have to say, I'm pretty discouraged. I can only hope and pray that this is worth it in the end, because that's all I can really do at this point.
Anyway, just venting. That's all.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 9:23:51 AM
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jlharris
Posts: 477
Joined: April 12, 2006
From: Nebraska
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What do you want to do for a living? If you want to be a PT be a PT. If you want to make >60k a year starting out, then pretend to be a Doctor and go to PA, ARNP, or OD school. Set your priorities, be honest with yourself, and then make decisions about your education, and you employment that move you towards those priorities.
I'm not going to defend PT. There are problems. But you'll find that in any profession.
_____________________________
Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 1:32:32 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2438
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
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I get discouraged at least twice a year - in January when fee schedules decrease and then again in July when apparently BCBS can decrease theirs yet again. Business costs continue to increase, but so you have to treat more for the revenue to come in and the profits are decreasing.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 1:41:43 PM
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aph401
Posts: 82
Joined: April 16, 2007
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So, basically everyone agrees with my original post.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 2:12:28 PM
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smithcove
Posts: 44
Joined: February 11, 2007
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You can make 75k being a PT.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 3:00:40 PM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
Posts: 449
Joined: March 14, 2006
Status: online
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MDs are complaining of the same things. It is not PT specific, it is industry wide what SJBird wrote about. things will correct when the market gets back in charge of what costs are. I can't see charging someone $45 for 15 minutes of supervised exercise but that is what some ins companies will pay.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 3:21:25 PM
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aph401
Posts: 82
Joined: April 16, 2007
Status: offline
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Please don't get me confused guys, I'm not just talking about money. I'm speaking more generally about the career choice as a whole, the DPT, and PT in comparison to other fields. I'm not speaking strictly on salary and unhappiness about what I hear about it.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 6:12:48 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
Joined: May 8, 2004
From: West Palm Beach
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It is a great field for the following reasons:
- never the same day twice
- typically not real labor intensive (though some patients and settings would change this)
- Work along side well educated people
- It is a profession and not just a job
- We get people better
- The field of healthcare isn't going anywhere anytime soon with these baby boomers hitting the ripe ages soon
- There are like 100 different ways you can practice within the profession if you ever feel burned out, such as home health, outpatient neuro, unpatient, sub-acute, peds, geriatrics, wound care, burn, stroke, etc. The profession opens limitless doors
- Our profession can take us to any corner of the country and still have work
- We can make a pretty good living and the opportunity is limitless if you are entreprenureal (sp?)
- Sure beats flipping burgers
So, sounds like you are looking for us to talk you out of the profession we chose. Not going to happen. Though depending on your goals, be it financial vs, easy lifestyle, vs no stress, etc, I would stear you in different directions. If you like an easy laid back work environment, low stress, flexible profession, then this is great, if you are looking to make 150-450K a year and work like 100 hours a week then stick with investment banking or be a surgeon. but the other allied health professions, be it PA, etc, all have pretty much the same pros and cons as PTs do, but at least our upside for the future is very bright.
PS, this is my 1000th post under this name, my old one got deleted a long time ago, but 1000 posts is like a benchmark for the r.e. hall of fame right?
Ben
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 7:19:34 PM
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aph401
Posts: 82
Joined: April 16, 2007
Status: offline
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quote:
So, sounds like you are looking for us to talk you out of the profession we chose. Not going to happen.
No, totally the opposite. My post was venting about how that's all I hear - I was looking for the COMPLETE opposite, some encouragement - which is why I was disappointed with the first few replies I received. I also posted this on another forum I visist, and this was the response I got:
I, unfortunately, have to agree that your concerns are (in my opinion) valid reality. I am a bachelors degree OT, and I considered a doctorate in OT for a brief second before applying to medical school. One of two changes need to happen for the DPT to be financially worth it: first, as you have learned in PT school, your billing is done by procedural codes. Until those codes isee a reimbursement increase (ie: until medicare and private insurances decide they want to spend more money on healthcare), it will be hard for employers to raise salaries without also having to raise productivity demand. Second, one would hope that APTA/CAPTE/whoever decided the DPT was a good idea would have made some distinction in what a DPT can do (in terms of legal scope of practice or billable procedure) that a good ol' PT cannot do.
That being said, if you love PT, you have to get the DPT now to do it; I think you need to do what you love. If you just love making money, then yes, you chose wrong. My healthcare "bang for the buck" rank goes like this:
#1: CRNA - 4 yr RN degree + 1 yr CC nursing + 2 yr masters degree = 140K for 40 hrs/wk + overtime, and strong nursing union (in Long Island). Some hard to staff areas or private GI docs will pay these guys 200K.
#2: Ultrasound tech - two year degree ONLY - that's like a 4K investment. In upstate NY, starting salary of 47K for 56 hours/wk + overtime...working 7 on/7 off. An ex-gf did this, then got a 2 -3 day part-time gig during her off week, getting $40/hr, then does call for like $100 a night just to carry call pager. Clocked like 70K first year.
#3. PA. Bachelors + 2 yr degree - do it all at a state school, and you're good to go. Start at 75K.
So, as I stated in my original post, it's too late to be "talked out" of anything. I've invested too much. And once I'm done, I'm not like some people who have the option of going on to med school or PA school or whatever. I have to earn a living and work... I have to work each and every day. My time for schooling is over, I've made a career decision that I have to stick with unless I win the lottery or marry a doctor, and can afford to quit work to pursue something else.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 7:45:26 PM
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jlharris
Posts: 477
Joined: April 12, 2006
From: Nebraska
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Here's the thing about the DPT, IMO. My wife bitches all the time thinking I should at least be able to do SOMETHING a bacheoler PT cannot. I can. I make her call me Dr. Harris :) Kidding aside, I don't worry that Joe Blow with his bacheoler makes the same as me. I feel the DPT is important because the extra education makes me a potentially better PT right out of school to handle direct access/differential diagnosis (I don't mean a better PT). This improved care I feel I can give my pt's is worth the extra 40 hours or whatever it is for the DPT vs PT. Some don't.
_____________________________
Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 8:36:02 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2438
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
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No, Ben... no RE Hall of Fame. My SJBird5 got deleted ages ago and I've never received anything. (You and I must have been deleted together! Look at our "joined" dates!!!) Oh, but wait... David A. had mentioned to me that I shouldn't have my Norton automatically spam my RE emails. Maybe I DID get something but it was considered spam, which means I never really received it. 
Tom, where are you practicing? Fee shedules in this area aren't like that for 97110. If insurance companies are paying it, then it has that value! It doesn't have that amount of value here though. And, yes, the fee schedule sucks for all in the medical profession, not just PT. I believe the anesthesiologists are the only group that will be having a raise in their fee schedule (CMS final report).
I've never flipped burgers, but I had a lot of fun delivering pizzas in Cadillac, MI.  Way back in the day (when I was doing my athletic training internship), I worked evenings at a local pizzeria kind of near the hospital. The only time I was allowed to roll dough was when we (the owner and I) came back from the Party Bar late at night to eat. Paying customers never experienced my lack of skill in rolling a perfect circle. LOL I loved taking orders, the smell of the ria, delivering zas.... There was one guy that loved to have me deliver his zas - he'd even request me. One night, he gave me a $10 tip that was all folded into a ring that actually fit my finger!
Life's too short to be "stuck" in anything. Opportunities always arise - you just have to weigh the risks and the benefits of potential opportunities.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 8, 2007 9:42:57 PM
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jma
Posts: 2414
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From: NY
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I agree with FLAOrthoPT for the same reasons.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 9, 2007 8:51:14 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1204
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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I won't talk anybody In or OUT of anything. I love - absolutely LOVE what I am doing now. And have, from day one of my career as PT.
I have lived in many countries. I have been in many work situations - army, foreign correspondent (NOT what you think!! - for business.....), apprentice accountant, teacher in high schools, and finally - PT(1983 grad). From general rotation hospital to psych hospital, from home to care to private practice and Clinical supervisor with four universities and faculty at one , to my own practice. Each step was better and a new challenge. And life is GOOD. And I am not rich in $$$ - but WEALTHY - just make myself a decent living with time for family, some study, some music and some play.
A career or profession has to fit. It sometimes takes time to find that fit. It takes effort and the occasional leap of faith - risk taking- to find your niche in life and work. It is what it is....
< Message edited by Sebastian Asselbergs -- November 9, 2007 8:54:49 AM >
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Mundi vult decipi
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 9, 2007 9:05:55 AM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
Posts: 449
Joined: March 14, 2006
Status: online
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SJ
I practice in Minnesota. I am at a 25 bed hospital and our charges are close to that high but the slightly larger hospitals in my area are charging nearly double that!! I think that the inflation of charges in all fields are because of the third party payors and the market as a whole not deciding what the charges should be. I got stitches in my face after not quite getting my softball glove up quickly enough about 15 years ago and the gauze that I held on my own face cost me $40. Two darvocet cost 8 bucks apiece and the next day I got a bottle of them for $8. PT is the same way.
True, if the current market bears it, $50 for 15 minutes of joint mobilization is what we should charge, however, if someone had to, or chose to pay out of pocket, we had better make some quick changes and the patient will need to see a tremendous improvement or we will just sit in our offices with our fee schedules and no patients.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 9, 2007 11:17:12 AM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2438
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
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Ah, Tom... got ya. You aren't necessarily speaking of outpatient services. I focus my knowledge in that area. Anyone can charge whatever they want, it never means one will be paid what one charges. Charges are inflated because of the different payor contracts out there in the outpatient world. I can be capped in a day for services with some contracts and with others a set fee schedule. When you are capped, you want to set your charges high enough to cover your costs of doing business and to capture the most revenue per visit. Generally, the procedural codes are additive and once you reach the capped amount, you are paid the capped amount for the day.
If insurance companies reimbursed $50 for 15 minutes of 97140, that is what it is worth. Why should the value be less to a patient? Just asking... I don't have any contract that pays $50 for 97140.... more like $25-27 for this year.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 9, 2007 2:52:45 PM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
Posts: 449
Joined: March 14, 2006
Status: online
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SJ
the majority of my practice is OP ortho but I am billing from a critical access rural hospital. So are the regional competitors however. It just seems to me that some of our charges have gotten ridiculous. Maybe that is why DCs are multplying like rabbits in my town. (8 in a town of 5500)
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 9, 2007 3:38:35 PM
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jesspt
Posts: 85
Joined: April 3, 2007
From: Illinois
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APH401,
Why did you select a DPT vs. MSPT program in the first place? Are those reasons no longer valid? It seems like you must have placed some importance on the doctoral degree or you would have pursued other options.
I've been a PT for 8 years and have a Master's degree. I hit a period of frustration about five years ago, but realized that the problem was internal - I'd stopped looking at ways to make myself a better clinician. By rededicating myself to improving clinical skills and decision making, my job satisfaction went way up and my patients outcomes improved as well. I plan on eventually pursuing the DPT.
I'm not sure where you will be practicing, but there are already differences in doctoral vs. master's trained PTs in Virginia. Under VA's new Direct access legistlation, a DPT can evaluate and treat without referral for two weeks. A MPT cannot do this unless they have recieved additional training in medical screening.
I agree with much of what has already been said in support of the profession, but I also feel that much of a PT's job satisfaction rests with the PT. You can let the various frustrations we all experience as practitioners get in the way of enjoying your profession, or you can focus on the things you can control: participation in life-long learning, improvement of clinical skill and getting better patient outcomes.
Jess
_____________________________
Jess Brown, PT
Board Certified in Orthopaedic Physical Therapy
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 9, 2007 4:36:47 PM
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Kaden
Posts: 334
Joined: June 17, 2007
Status: offline
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I have not pursued my DPT yet but would be interested in it for the same reason Jason touches on. There seems to be a very negative conetation (sp?) about cost and the DPT. If you are looking at cost benefit ratio then consider a state school, obviously much cheaper.
However, if you are considering cost benefit ratio at all then you will see at this point in the market there is no salary benefit to the DPT - but other benefits as some have allready pointed out in this post.
If insurance companies ever jump on board with the DPT idea (not likely but lets pretend) then there may become a financial incentive to obtain a DPT and I would assume we would see a lot of employers jumping on board to help clinicians obtain such a degree.
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RE: Discouraged due to internet research and forums - November 9, 2007 4:58:03 PM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
Posts: 1057
Joined: February 29, 2004
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
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Finish your degree and become an Army Physical Therapist. There is never a dull moment. In addition to being an officer I get to treat American Soldiers, learn to fire various weapons systems and I can assemble and disassemble an M-16 with a blindfold. Just last week I learned how to drive a M1A1 (That's a U.S. Army tank for you non-military folk). I was sent to Fort Benning and learned how to parachute out of a perfectly good airplane and have rappelled out of a Blackhawk helicopter hovering 100 feet above the drop zone. I have also traveled all over the world. It’s great.
< Message edited by Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS -- November 9, 2007 5:02:40 PM >
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