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DPT question
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DPT question - March 4, 2005 8:52:00 AM
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NorthernPT
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A colleague of mine who has a DPT teaches an exercise physiology class at the local community college, with her students call her "Dr ...", but in the clinic patients call her by her first name. It's not that big of a town and often students or friends/family of her students will be referred to PT and will ask their M.D. that they want to see "Dr. ..." (with a couple of the M.D.'s complaining to the PT director), or will call the clinic requesting "Dr. ...". Some patients get a bit confused when she says you can call me "Dr. ..." at school, but here just call me by my first name. I was wondering what the general opinion was on this. As time goes on, with the possibility of PT's with the DPT performing activities outside of the clinic where their doctoral title can be used more freely, will this cause more confusion?
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Re: DPT question - March 4, 2005 9:43:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Good point.
Per the other thread, "Should PTs be called Dr", I think that during this transition period we should keep that to a bare minimum. It won't help our profession any by rocking the boat and appearing to present ourselves as physicians.
I know of several other professions who have that problem, and that may be where much of the establishment negativity comes from. I am thinking specifically of Naturopathic Physicians, or NDs, here.
Certainly in the teaching environment, calling a PT with a PhD "Doctor" is entirely appropriate. Students call their english and particle physics professors that, also. It seems like this colleague of yours is really trying to walk a fine line on this, and I respect her judgement and am glad she is aware of the issue.
And yes, it will cause more confusion, but maybe some of that is inevitable.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DPT question - March 4, 2005 10:20:00 AM
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OaksPT
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Like Jason says, it's going to be a learning curve, look at optometrists and opthamologist, one is an MD the other, an OD, similar to DPT, and a PharmD, but I don't think the public really sees any difference in the designation during their eye exam. I think the boat is going to be rocked no matter what we do in the next couple of years between POPTS, and the DPT. So we might as well thicken our skins and get ready for it, as public/physician perception is going to carry more weight than the actual truth.
Scott
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Scott Oaks PT,DPT
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Re: DPT question - March 5, 2005 9:38:00 AM
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tc
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I agree. I am starting to think the whole "dr" smith, thing is inevitable because it is happening more and more and is becoming legal more and more. however, i do think that DPTs really need to clarify that they are a doctor of physical therapy, not a physician doctor when asked. i don't think this is demeaning to specify this, it is the truth. when and if i go for my DPT or DScPT, if i choose to use "dr", i will be clear on the nature of the degree. i think this will stop some of the confusion from patients and physicians alike. we also need to stop one attitude i have been hearing, that we are now on par with physicians since we have a doctorate degree. yes, it is a doctorate, but it is different, not necessarily worse, as good or better, just another type of doctorate. i don't know what entry-level DPT programs are like now obviously, but you cannot expect that to equal or exceed 4 years of med school and *at least* 4 years of residency. let's be more honest and say that it is a difficult and challenging program (DPT) but shorter and not *equal* to an M.D. just because they both end with a doctorate degree.
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Re: DPT question - March 7, 2005 8:22:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Actually you get your MD after 4 years, and residency is not required to sit for a licensure exam.
I think the degrees are equivalent in that it is an equal academic degree. The difference is the subject matter.
We do not deal in the life and death stuff many (not all) physicians do, and I would NEVER let anyone have the impression that I am a physician. Not because I see them as better, just different, and they have earned their place in our health system, I respect that. Because they can deal with more life and death issues, I am sure they deserve a higher place on the ladder as well.
I want to make sure no one confuses us. This is especially true in the military, where we all wear similar uniforms. I won't let anyone call me "Doctor" because I want them to know that the person taking care of them is a Physical Therapist, and give their real Doctor/Physician credit for referring them to the subject matter experts. When I get my DPT, I will always be clear that I am a Doctor of Physical Therapy, and NOT a physician. It is as much about marketing as it is about respect for my colleagues who obtained Doctorates in Medicine (Osteopaths included).
Many people in the medical system have Doctoral degrees, and I feel that's fine, everyone has a different emphasis. Here our Podiatrists are called doctor all the time, which to me is perfectly appropriate since they are Doctors of Podiatric Medicine.
How is a DPT different from a DPM?
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DPT question - March 7, 2005 6:34:00 PM
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tc
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i'm not trying to argue with you, i think we basically agree. but just since you mentioned it, i know that MDs get their MD degree once they graduate med school, but then they do residencies for several years whereas we don't. also, both med school and DPM school are both 4 years and then include residencies, whereas ours are 3 years at the most and then we graduate and are ready to work. that's how i see a DPT different than a DPM. don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to put down our field at all. just agreeing that they are all different.
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Re: DPT question - March 8, 2005 1:04:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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My physician friends tell me that the MD degree is granted after graduation from a 4 year school, and that a residency is not required to take a licensure exam and practice medicine.
I agree that we do agree, and I certainly am not attempting to argue that our education is as broad as that a Physician has, or that we are as important on a societal level. Only arguing that no one has a right to the "Doctor" title more than another. And whether we can or we should use it are two different things.
:)
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DPT question - March 8, 2005 2:22:00 AM
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NorthernPT
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A friend of mine who teaches in a University told me that within his department (music), there are 4 different doctoral degrees held by professors, PhD, EdD, DMA (doctor of musical arts), and DM (doctor of music). Some faculty have feelings of "my doctorate is better than your doctorate", with the PhD being more research based and others, like the DMA, being more for applied specializations (performing or conducting) are take a lot fewer graduate credits than a PhD, but in the end, students call everyone with a doctorate Dr. I just wanted to bring this up as health care isn't the only place degree comparisons take place.
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Re: DPT question - March 8, 2005 4:37:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Well said, and good point.
Also a good way to see that the title "Doctor" did not originate with, nor is exclusive to, anything medical.
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DPT question - March 8, 2005 3:46:00 PM
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tc
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good points from both of you, and jason, i agree the "can vs. the should" using of the title is really important. i was wondering if there is strife between opthamologists and optometrists, and PhD vs. PsyD psychologists, etc. I guess there probably is, since NorthernPT reports it within the music department profesors (something i hadn't even thought of!). oh well, it's probably a point people will be disputing for years to come, then one day it may just become a given that PTs are referred to as Dr (when they have a doctorate, of course) as others have said happened in other professions that have undergone a similar change in education.
:) tc
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Re: DPT question - April 4, 2005 10:42:00 AM
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NorthernPT
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This same colleague of mine mentioned in the initial post had a good story last week. She routinely calls a couple chiros in town if one is concurrently seeing a patient of hers, and she'll leave a message to call back "Dr. ...". All of the D.C.'s except one now call her Dr. on the phone except one, who when calling her back for the first time (several months ago), asked her if she was a physiatrist, etc. When she explained her degree, he kindly told her she didn't have a real doctorate. She told him she didn't think A D.C. was a real doctorate either so they should forget all the Dr. crap and just call each other by their first names. He didn't find it too amusing.
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Re: DPT question - April 5, 2005 1:57:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Well, there's one in every crowd...
But I for one prefer the first name thing anyway.
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DPT question - April 5, 2005 12:43:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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My physician friends tell me that the MD degree is granted after graduation from a 4 year school, and that a residency is not required to take a licensure exam and practice medicine.
This is ONLY true in the military, those without formal residency training and possess only an internship year (one year of post graduate training) are called "flight surgeons"...they are not surgeons nor do they necessarily fly.
To obtain state licensure, one must pass the USLME or COMLEX part 3 exam. To take this exam, the general rule is that you must practice 6-12 months prior (this is done in the internship year).
One cannot specialize or become board certified in anything until you finish a residency.
Outside of the military, everyone does a residency...a "GP" is an old name used to signify the practicing physician who completed his internship year only.
THere really are NONE of those characters left...I know of zero.
Do I see the DPT and the MD/DO degrees as equal...Hell no. The rigor of the programs are completely different, the board testing is completely different, the entrance is completely different. The are different degrees...apples and oranges.
I see the DPT the same as a PharmD...the modern "pharmacist".
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: DPT question - April 5, 2005 4:10:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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Again, Dr. Wagner and I agree. A DPT and an MD or DO cannot be compared, a DPT isn't a medical degree while the MD and DO are. I agree that as non-medical clinical doctorates go, a DPT is "on par" (whatever that means) with the PharmD, AuD, OD, DDS, DPM, or DC. Obviously, as one of the newer kids on the block, the DPT is going to get picked on and tested by the playground bullies a bit before being respected on par, in the eyes of both the healthcare community and colleague professions, with some of the other non-medical clinical doctors aforementioned.
The EdD and PhD, which have come up before, are outside this discussion. While "doctors" they are both non-medical, and non-clinical.
I've been working out my DPT vision for quite some time now, and think I've got it. I DO NOT want to compete with an MD. That's not why I want a DPT. I want a DPT to be the safest therapist I can be. I want a DPT to treat more efficiently, more effectively than I have in the past. The value of a DPT isn't so much in learning when to call the MD with a concern, but rather HOW to communicate observed subjective reports of patient changes and visceral referal patterns in ways that neither "cry wolf," nor turn off physicians. In short, it's not about learning when an MD needs to be called, so much as when they don't need to be bothered for a false alarm. Can I get this without a DPT? Sure, but the DPT puts all of that continuing education in a nice, neat package, and allows me a label with which to communicate without unambiguity to others, that such a level of achieved clinical decision making has been at the very least presented to, if not absorbed by, the holder of the DPT. Without it, others either have to guess, or I'd have to tell them.
The truth is, while ya'll would never know it from my posts here, in person people around me realize that I've learned the art of, to play on words, "Toot my horn, without blowing it." For me, holding a t-DPT is all the tooting that I'll ever need to do. It's quiet way to say, "been there, done that, have diff dx education, have the imaging eduction, have the pharm education" in a way that is accepted to people who care, and not off-putting to people who don't.
Maybe I'm oversensitive about it, but having an MBA and PhD in a clinical profession where most people don't, I'm VERY self-aware about the way I come off in person. People almost expect some degree of arrogance or condescent, so the less said about certain topics, usually the better. Simply slowing down my speaking speed so as to pick my words carefully and avoid argument born from misinterpretation of something I say is on occasion incorrectly viewed as condescent.
Simply having a DPT is just about all I ever need to say about my entry-level clinical skills and how I've kept up with the APTA vision. It's respected by people who care, and ignored by people who either don't, or are threatened by the APTA vision.
It's just like a PhD in one respect. Anyone can do, or be taught to do research, but anyone with an earned PhD has demonstrated, under peer-review, that they have done so. It, like the DPT, is simply recognition of specific achievements.
Drew
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Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: DPT question - April 6, 2005 2:54:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Wags, I would agree with you, that the DPT is a lot like a PharmD or DDS, etc.
There are physicians who are not residency trained or board certified who practice outside the military. In the military, the "GP" (we call them "GMOs" or general medical officers) are simply getting experience and waiting to hear on residency applications.
Like Drew, I think the point isn't to compare MD/DO and DPT. There really isn't a comparison, neither can do what the other can, the emphasis is completely different.
And as Drew said, it's a non-medical doctorate. While the medical profession may have to contend with pretenders who call themselves physicians who also have doctoral degrees that aren't DO or MD, DPTs are not one of those pretender groups.
:)
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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