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DPT education
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 12:51:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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The DPT is worth it b/c it does provide better care for the patient.
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 1:33:00 PM
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drbuddy
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From: Pennsylvania
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Can I take the test : )
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 2:04:00 PM
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karmzack
Posts: 181
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From: Hawaii
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Great article, I have the full text in PDF, if anyone wants it e-mail me.
Here are some of the test scores (% correct)
Ortho surgeon - 94
OCS/SCS PT - 81
no OCS/SCS PT - 74
DPT student - 68
MPT student - 64
FP Doctor - 61
There are 8 more types of docs, the scores keep dropping.
Sorry drbuddy, chiros weren't a part of the test.
The moral of the story, get your OCS, then DPT. And it's true, the surgeon is a (near) know-it-all.
_____________________________
Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 2:10:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
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From: Kansas
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Zack,
Please e-mail me the full text. vt2c1ms@cox.net
Thanks,
Mark
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 2:15:00 PM
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drbuddy
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From: Pennsylvania
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Does the full text have the test questions?
This is a nice benchmark, but how closely can this test measure real life ability to manage these conditions?
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 2:33:00 PM
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Jon Newman
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The full text of the article is available in the link Mark posted. Check it again and you'll find it. No the test questions are not available in the article.
[URL=http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/10/1421]Here's the link[/URL] to the original study using the test. Perhaps the test can be found there.
Mark, are there critics of the DPT?
and
Do you have facts to base your DPT 'provides better care' statement or is it opinion at this point (not that there is anything wrong with that)? What defines better care?
I ask this because I imagine that the type of questions asked on this test is material covered in both DPT and MPT programs. The DPT program, from my understanding, if focused more on administrative and research type curricula, not basic clinical skills over and above the MPT.
I imagine if the test focused on managing painful conditions the results would have had PT's on top and MD's on the bottom. I also suspect that MD's wouldn't care if that were the case because the pain management part is our job.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 2:38:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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Jon,
You are so picky-- :) . Better care = Better scores. It doesn't matter what field you are in, of course experience means you have more skills. I'm talking right of school comparisons, MPT vs. DPT programs. DPT's are better educated, hence better scores. For a recent graduate, better scores do mean better care. What else is there to judge? Therefore, the DPT is worthwhile. Yes, there are many critics of the DPT, mostly from the elder PT's in my experience.
Mark
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 2:45:00 PM
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kragar
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I'm not sure if the correct conclusions are being drawn. Furthermore, to say "DPTs are better educated hence the better scores" ...kinda silly don't you think? Was the sample size strong enough to support your conclusion? Was the test subjects randomly chosen?
First, who wrote the test? Who validated the questions?
To me, seems as though the conclusion/agenda was devised PRIOR to the study. Hence a sh!tload of bias.
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 2:54:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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"This same examination has been previously been used to assess knowledge in musculoskeletal medicine among medical students, physician interns and residents, and across a variety of physician specialties."
Kragar--I know there is always a way to question a study--no matter how it is done, etc. Obviously, this study comes from a good source with expert researchers--what else do you want? Please read the full article--it explains the bias issue near the end. Numbers speak for themselves. It's a good study. 3 years of professional education versus 2 years of it **** well better lead to higher scores no matter the profession is. The APTA is currently debating changing the DPT from 3 to 4 years in oncoming years. Then, I will say 4 years is better than 3 years.
Mark
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 3:08:00 PM
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jma
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A nice study indeed, especially if the authors are Childs, Whitman and Flynn. They put out a lot of nice articles.
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 4:24:00 PM
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kragar
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I am not sure that saying because the source (authors) are well respected that automatically the study is good.
I think there is a signifcant bias issue and I also believe there are problems of validity of questions, likely tilted toward orthopedic surgery literature.
Perhaps if each group (PT, DC, FP docs, PMandR docs, Orthos, OT's, ATC's and PTAs) would all submit questions, then objectively reviewed, and then given to the test subjects (after randomization) then a clear conclusion could occur.
But I think there is a problem with any study that has an agenda and wishes to PROVE it by creating a study that will likely support their cause (ie a study by DC's testing patient satisfaction with manipulation between DC students and PT students).
Ya know what I mean.
I guess if they were REALLY concerned regarding entry level knowledge...why not just INCREASE the passing score for boards...isn't THAT WHY there are boards? I mean, this is a test created by people at Baylor that tested musculoskeletal management...if the concern is that the DPT truly is a superior entry level degree, then increase the board passing score globally and then see if their conclusions are correct.
Furthermore you could ALSO INTERPRET that perhaps ONLY OCS PT's should treat orthopedic injuries.
OR
Since there is a significant difference between management skills, perhaps a specialty internship for PT is necessary prior to direct patient intervention?
I think the study should be used for INTROSPECTION and to internally better the profession not to outwardly serve an agenda and comparing the management of muskuloskeletal injuries with professions that don't always do such.
What if the NATA used a similar study to validate that ATC's should only be used to treat acute on field injuries?
What would happen then?
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 4:49:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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I guess I don't understand the bias issue. I don't believe the authors are PT/DPT's nor was there any affiliation from the APTA from what I read. Where is the bias? I would understand if the APTA did the study or if DPT's were the researchers. Maybe you can explain it. It's not necessarily the degree that makes it better, it's the increased years of background education---that will make any field better. Don't you agree?
Mark
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 4:50:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
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From: Kansas
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Change: "I don't believe the authors are DPT's etc. etc. etc." --oops
Mark
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 4:54:00 PM
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Synergy
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From: Texas
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[QUOTE]I don't believe the authors are PT/DPT's nor was there any affiliation from the APTA from what I read.[/QUOTE]Mark,
I'm not sure which article you're reading, but the link you posted was written by PTs which are affiliated with the APTA.
_____________________________
Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 4:54:00 PM
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Synergy
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NM...our posts seem to have crossed. :)
_____________________________
Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 4:57:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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Chris,
I stand corrected. However, not all PT's are affiliated with the APTA nor are all PT's DPT's.
Mark
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Re: DPT education - August 2, 2005 6:04:00 PM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1707
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From: Amherst, WI
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Mark,
You ask
[QUOTE] For a recent graduate, better scores do mean better care. What else is there to judge? [/QUOTE]It is a good question to ponder as you go through school. As the elite grade earners begin to present themselves, continue to ask yourself who you would like to receive care from and see if you still feel your statement holds. As time goes on you may find many exceptions to the rule. Enough exceptions to wonder if it is a rule worth living by.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 3:51:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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From: USA
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kragar-
This test was not assembled at Baylor, nor by PTs, nor to create an agenda within the PT community.
This was a test devised by Orthopedists who were concerned about the quality of musculoskeletal medicine being taught in medical schools in the US.
It was designed and rigorously tested by physicians, and both Ortho and non-ortho physicians decided what the questions should be and what the passing score should be.
PTs simply used the test to gauge the ability of PTs to manage primary care musculoskeletal type problems.
No one is suggesting the test be used to exclude certain providers based on score, as you suggest.
Speaking of bias....
And Mark, better scores on a primary care musculoskeletal exam do not necessarily reflect on better care of patients, especially those with nonpathological painful conditions, the lion's share of PT work.
Do what Jon suggested. Come back after your clinical rotations and talk with your classmates. See if you want the smartest ones to treat you or if your opinion changes.
This study does help establish the appropriateness of knowledge of PTs in treating people with musculoskeletal problems in a direct access situation. It validates the idea that PTs are some of the best at demonstrating knowledge in managing musculoskeletal problems, and in fact better than any physician except the residency trained orthopedic surgeon.
The full text has a very interesting discussion section everyone should read.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 7:01:00 AM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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It's a generalized statement that I do believe holds true. Orthopedic surgeons have the best scores = better care in general than DPT's ( they wouldn't practice PT in general b/c they make more money with the knife ). DPT's better scores than MPT programs = better care. I know what you are saying, but IN GENERAL a better score represent more knowledge which represents better care for the patient. I believe the more knowledge a person has, the better they will be able to treat.
Mark
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