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College Rankings..
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College Rankings.. - August 18, 2005 9:19:00 AM
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Nef
Posts: 17
Joined: July 31, 2005
From: Brooklyn, NY
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Does anyone know where I can get accredeted PT school rankinks? I know the CAPTE ranks them but can not find it anywhere..
or more specifically, anybody from NY what do you think/know about the Touro College PT program?
please respond
thank you.
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 18, 2005 9:42:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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You can purchase the rankings from US News and World Reports Online. The NY schools are ranked as follows:
16 NYU
25 Columbia
35 Ithaca
35 SUNY Buffalo
Only the top 100 are ranked, and Touro is not among them.
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 18, 2005 12:17:00 PM
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MinnDasota
Posts: 29
Joined: July 22, 2005
From: NYC
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Hi,
Tuoro is a decent program, but as I have worked with some of their students (during their affiliations) at our clinic, I am not as impressed as students from NYU, Hunter, and Columbia. Ithaca is good too.
As far as rankings go, they are very subjective and the intangibles aren't taken into account. Columbia U has New York Presbyterian and is part of the College of Physicians and Surgeons Medical Center. NYU is also a part of their own medical center. Hunter is on a campus near NYU's PT program and has excellent teachers (but their pediatrics is still lacking). As far as cost, NYU and Columbia are expensive while Hunter is very cheap (which makes it hard to get accepted due to the high volume of applicants).
As with all programs, each student is different, but I was very suprised at how much less some of the students knew coming from Tuoro as opposed to the other schools. As I recall, I am not even sure if they even have gross anatomy as a class. If you you plan to work in Ortho, then that is a big negative.
I am not sure if there is a big difference between Tuoro's manhattan campus vs. Brooklyn campus, but I'm sure they are similar. When I was applying to school last year, Tuoro was on my list because I wanted to stay in Manhattan. However, as with some of the things stated earlier, I didn't apply there.
All in all, I have worked quite extensively with PT's from Ithaca, Hunter, NYU, and Columbia and have found their programs have well-prapared their students past graduation.
Someone going to Tuoro might have a better answer, but this is from my experiences. Good luck!
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 18, 2005 12:29:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
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From: West Palm Beach
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if it is accredited and affordable, then what more do you need? you as the student make what you may of PT school. If you just go for grades, then go anywhere, if you are going to spend time really learning and asking a lot of questions and then go anywhere. If you love research then go to a research bias school such as Duke. All in all, it is who you know and your clinicals that will teach you what you need to know and land you your first job. I used to be in charge of employing new PTs, and I never once picked someone based on their school, while I did NOT pick people based on a particular school that is so biased they get tunnel vision and I knew that person would not fit well with our staff.
What I am getting at is, you make PT school what you want it to be regardless of where you are. If you are a great student going in, you'll be a great student once you are there. Make sure it is accredited, make sure it follows a format you like, that is, semesters first year round or lecture base verse case study base, etc. Then look at location and convenience and cost. Who cares where they are ranked...I went to a lesser ranked school, but I can put me and many people I graduated with against any PT from any school and be confident in my knowledge, as can I find some people at my old school that I wouldn't want to be treating my relatives but are just the same as students from the supposed top tier programs.
Rankings Shmakings...price, convenience, type of program, etc...that is where you need to spend time researching-
Good luck-
Ben
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 18, 2005 12:37:00 PM
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MinnDasota
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From: NYC
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I agree 100% with Ben. Don't base it on rankings. I am sure there have been plenty of great clinicians from Tuoro. I just speak based specifically on whom I have worked with in the past. Consider "...price, convenience, type of program, etc...that is where you need to spend time researching-"-Ben
Good Luck
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 19, 2005 5:42:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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Well said, Ben.
Amen.
Ignore rankings and who went where, ignore "I-know a student from XYZ university and they don't know anything" type of stories. I am sure people are doing their best to give you good info, but anecodotal information is no information at all.
Take Ben's advice to heart, you'll be better for it.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 20, 2005 11:03:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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From: Charlotte, NC
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I'd have to disagree with quite a lot of the advice being given here. While it is true that some good therapists have come out of some pretty bad, unranked programs --- many more great clinicians have come out of the better schools. Furthermore, the better students are attacted to the better-ranked programs, and there is something to said for the networking with specific professors --- and specific future-leaders/students in your class.
If simply being a clinician is all that you're interested in, then I agree that it really doesn't matter where you go to school --- but then again, if a student is looking at physical therapy a 9-5 job as opposed to a professional calling, I'd personally rather them join the ranks of massage therapists, athletic trainers, and chiropractors.
Unlike in the past, doctors of physical therapy are expected to be professionals --- and that means more than just treating patients professionalLY. The first in a long-line of professional decisions is which school to go to and what type of students and professors you'd like to surround yourself with for not only classroom, but also professional culturation, networking, etc.
If ya'll really think that this occurs just as well at top 10 schools like Duke, UNC, MGH/Harvard, and USC, versus the unranked programs . . . I've got a bridge to sell ya!
The problem with getting advice on rankings is that only a fraction of the profession can go to a top school --- but ask a graduate of WashU, Duke, UNC, or MGH/Harvard if their top-ranked degree made any difference for them . . .
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 20, 2005 11:08:00 AM
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SJBird55
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There is a wonderful thing about being an APTA member: APTA member directory and attending conferences is that you do have the opportunity to speak/email/phone individuals that are doing things that interest you. Getting the education is one part... applying what is learned is another aspect... but then, hey, realistically, we all can't atttend a top 10 school, so remember there will be other opportunities to learn more and network via membership. Your career begins with the education, but it doesn't end there... those "educational" years are just a tiny blip on your career timeline.
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 20, 2005 12:04:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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From: Charlotte, NC
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"Getting the education is one part... applying what is learned is another aspect... but then, hey, realistically, we all can't atttend a top 10 school, so remember there will be other opportunities to learn more and network via membership."
On this point, SJ, we agree.
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 20, 2005 1:31:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
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drew, I have asked, i have supervised, i have worked along side, and I have NEVER seen any difference good or bad with which school someone attended. If someone is a great student, then they'll excell no matter where they go. I think that people get tricked into going to these top teir schools b/c they actually think they'll have classes with some of these professors...hell these professors are busy doing research! I'd love to go to school with cyriax, doesn't mean I'll have a learning style that allows me to learn from him, and nor does it mean he'll be around to instill the learning process in me.
Anyone can be spoon fed the theoris of therapy, it is the therapy student that goes above and beyond the classroom and synthesizes the material taught, the material observed, and the material deduced that becomes a great clinician. I think as much as you disagree, that holds no more weight, I respectfully agree to disagree and still say based on experience not only with myself and those from my group in school but those I have worked with, worked for, supervised, and help as a CI that the school they go to means almost nothing...the way the synthesize material and grasp the big picture is EVERYTHING. Granted i may have not been farmed on research at my school, but I have learned the ability to learn, and know where to seek or who to seek as resources if I wish to perform sound research.
Another point, yes most of us this IS a 9-5 profession. Not in that strict sense that we turn our monds off when we go home, but unfortunately a lot of us need to pay bills and perhaps support a family. If I can earn 150K from a tier 2 school so to say and joe shmoe is making 42K after graduating from MGH who is really ahead? do we all have to be leaders in the profession? doesn't being a successful and knowledgebale clinician well known in your specific region of your city matter for anything?
I think standing on soapboxes must be nice, but it is not a realistic thing for many people when they are floating a 500K mortgage and 100K college debt. Wish it were that simple, maybe for some it is, but I still say where you go means almost nothing, it is what you do with your education during and after school that matters more.
Thanks for the fierce conversation-
Rome
Out
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 23, 2005 2:04:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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I understand your position, Drew, but I still agree with Ben.
I think it is extraordinarily difficult to provide any true "ranking" or grading system between schools. Any system is inherently full of bias and I would argue almost certainly invalid.
It has been my experience with people (as well as with institutions and organizations) that reputation and quality/competence are rarely linked. I think you have a point that more "top ranked" students may be drawn to more "top ranked" schools, but then that means you have those with the strongest GPAs going to certain schools.
Looking back in school, I don't think the smartest kids in the class ended up the best practitioners, and I would bet that holds true for ANY profession.
I would argue such hard-to-measure factors such as maturity, flexibility, independence, and creative thinking matter more than the other ways we typically use to "rank" students, and also impact the pracititioners career more.
I think making some generalized guidelines in school selection as far as general location on the quality bar is reasonable, but attempting to rank or draw important differences between a supposedly #3 school and a supposedly #30 school is not likely to reap much worthwhile information.
I think you've got a lot more school and academic experience under your belt, so I respect your opinion, but I still throw my hat in with Ben and "agree to disagree" with you on that one.
Or maybe I'm just miffed my school (which I thought was great) was not on the top 10 list!
:)
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 23, 2005 8:15:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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From: Barrie, Canada
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I went to school in the Netherlands. Did learn from a few biggies in Europe - guest lecturers Cyriax, Kaltenborn, Janda etc. I have learned as much but different in past 22 years from many other sources. School name and reputation may be important in a CV or as a stepping stone towards academia, but does it make a good clinician - no way! Some of you know I have been involved with five universities in Ontario and their PT students. All the same. Humans. Some became awesome PTs, some are so-so (despite my stellar instruction! ).
No, work on the science, the humanities and do not stop learning - from anyone and especially your patients!
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 26, 2005 4:07:00 PM
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Echaconas
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From: Baltimore, MD
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Does anyone know how PT programs are ranked? I have been told that it is based upon the amount of research and Ph.d's that are produced, but I have never been able to find the info from a good source. I wonder how much objective data goes into the rankings. I wonder if the percentage rate of graduating students who pass the boards the first or second time is taken into acount. I agree with Jason and Ben, the rankings should be the last thing one looks at when choosing a PT school. I chose the school I am attending because I felt like it was a perfect fit for me. The cost was reasonable, the location was good, the format of the school suited me, I was impressed by the faculty and I agreed with the philosophy of the school. The top ranked schools should be the ones that instill the most passion for the profession in its students. I guess you cant measure that.
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E. Chaconas PT,DPT,MTC,CSCS
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 28, 2005 12:38:00 PM
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lekar
Posts: 17
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Check the U.S NEWS COLLEGE RANKING. You can get it from Barnes and Noble or other book stores. There are college rankings of all programs including PTs in U.S. It is also explained how they rank programs.
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 29, 2005 3:08:00 PM
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InOrbit
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Ben,
well said. Another point too that, sometimes students can blame the system and whine that they did not receive the best kind of teaching. I feel its important to make additional effort and upgrade yourself too , take courses whatever.Grad school can only teach you so much.
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 29, 2005 3:54:00 PM
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jma
Posts: 2312
Joined: August 24, 2000
From: NY
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While that magazine ranks PT programs and others as well, it does not list all the PT schools. Example? Couldn't find my school. They have their own criteria for ranking but I think they should list every school.
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Re: College Rankings.. - August 29, 2005 4:22:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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JMA,
Only the top 100 PT schools are listed.
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: College Rankings.. - October 21, 2005 3:41:00 AM
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Sean_Collins
Posts: 74
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From: Massachusetts
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My understanding of the US News College Ranking of PT programs is that a list of all accredited PT programs is sent to program chairs/directors and they are asked to rank the schools. There is no consideration to any quantitative data - such as the research dollars; acceptance rate (a measure of selectivity); graduation rate (success at retaining students); pass rate on the examination (minimal criteria for success); etc. I am not advocating the use of any of the above to rank PT programs, I just know that some of them are used when ranking other academic programs.
I guess when we talk about "ranking" PT programs we need a solid definition of what we are trying to know about them. I see many different concepts floating around in this discussion regarding ranking - quality of the clinician; professional; advanced beyond the average. But what do any of these concepts mean? And, even if we do agree, how can they be assessed so that programs can be ranked?
In Law, Medicine and Business (MBA), the school you attend dictates where and how much you can demand as a starting salary. There is a very practical understanding in the professional world that is ascribed value in starting salary. Do you all feel - as people hiring in the field of PT - that you would offer a graduate of one of these top 10 schools a higher salary than a graduate of an unranked school if they were both new graduates that just passed the examination?
Also - isn't this a bit circular? Could the higher ranked Law school student demand a higher salary because their school is ranked higher?
Just some thoughts - other than the above I tend to try to stay out of ranking discussions. I teach at an "unranked" school. We are a public, doctoral university, with just about 30 years in PT education, with a 3 year first time pass rate on the exam of 95%, our chair is co-editor/author of the most widely used PT book internationally, many of the other faculty have widely used books; many of us have clinical specializations and continue to be involved with clinical practice, many of us have grant funding and are continuously developing the scholarly basis of our areas, our students all find employment where they want including the large (low salary) teaching hospitals and large medical centers, in summary we are very comfortable despite our "unranked" status. :)
Best -
Sean
_____________________________
Sean M. Collins, PT, ScD, CCS
Associate Professor
Research Coordinator
Department of Physical Therapy
Coordinator, Graduate Program in Disability Outcomes
Adjunct Professor, Department of Work Environment
School of Health &
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