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Changing Exercises
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Changing Exercises - May 9, 2005 8:05:00 AM
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anoopbal
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As they all say, is it good to change exercises every now and then to shock your body and start making gains again?
I think it is a bit overexxagerated. Any opinions appreciated.
Anoop
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 9, 2005 10:09:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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I think there is a fair amount of evidence supporting periodization as well as other regimens designed to manipulate variables such as load and volume in the continued improvement of strength.
Certainly, the proliferation of methods such as periodization, high intensity training, Louie Simmons' Westside Barbell approach, etc. is evidence also that we don't have all the answers yet, either.
I think that changing your regimen is important to prevent your body adapting to a given stimulus and failing to improve. I have seen this phenomenon in patients as well as in my own fitness program, though to what degree it is present and how regularly exercises must change is as much opinion as fact.
So...for fitness clients, I recommend changing every 3 weeks or so, whether volume, load, exercise order, selection, etc.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 9, 2005 11:36:00 AM
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karmzack
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As with all message boards, the lack of information leads to a lot of assumptions. What do you mean by gains? Strength, speed, power, size? I'm not sure if that matters for the typical gym user, but for an athlete the timing of the change in training variables will matter. For myself, I like to not only change the variables(volume, intensity, exercise) I also like to change the phase (hypertrophy, strength, and power phase).
I like to refer to the Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning text from the NSCA and would recommend it to anyone interested in periodization and goal oriented training.
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Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 9, 2005 12:06:00 PM
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anoopbal
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I am not arguing against periodization. Even I use a periodization scheme in my workouts. To be specific, I am talking about gains in hypertrophy and strength.
I dont think there is any periodization protocol ou there reccomending changing exercise to ward of fatigue and to keep gains coming.
Arguably, WSB followers change exercises to minimise the CNS fatigue;bodybuilders change exercises to 'shock' the body. All practises yet to proven in studies though.
Anoop
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 9, 2005 1:44:00 PM
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karmzack
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In the context that you are describing I would agree, changing an exercise to a similar varient without a change in any other variable does not 'shock' the body. At least I am not aware of any research supporting it. It could be an interesting proposal though.
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Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 10, 2005 7:04:00 AM
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coreconcepts
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When it comes to changing exercise variables (periodization) to "shock" the body, the theories are vast and far-reaching. Like Jason siad, we don't have all the answers, but there are many things that we have learned. We do know that periodization promotes better results (regardless of outcome goal) than just a flat model.
I like to seperate programming changes into "minor" and "major" categories. Within each microcycle (or every 2-3 weeks), I like to make minor changes within the framework of the current program (for myself, and my clients). These types of changes may be; increased load, higher reps, different order, etc. I incorporate a wholesale change every 4-6 weeks (depending on goals) whereby I change the exercises/movements, volume, rest, frequency and perhaps the phase (ie. hypertrophy to power). For most of my clients who are fat loss oriented, I make similar adjustments, but usually do not stray too far from the muscular endurance model. I increase the difficulty of exercises through more complex movements and balance challenges.
Anoop - There is no ONE periodization protocol that will continue to elicit imporvement. Although, periodization principals generally will promote increased gains/results (keeping in mind the theory of diminishing returns, and the nature of the beast when it comes to stagnation). Where I believe things get exagerated and convoluted, is when people try and do something completely different each time. I think there is merit in keeping one on a program long enough to see some results.
With infinite possibilities of program variation, it is impossible to say that one protocol is the "best". Recent research, though has cited undulating periodization as being superior to other periodization protocols. The theory is that because rep/weight vary throughout the week (1-4 to 12-15), all fiber types are stimulated adequately, and the rest is worked right into the system.
The best periodization models I've seen are from Tudor Bompa's "Serious Strength Training". Kramer and Fleck also have awesome books on the subject.
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 10, 2005 10:51:00 AM
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anoopbal
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Let me bring uo a simple scenario to make you better understand my question: I am trying to improve my bench press strength.
Let us assume I am using a conjucate periodization(or undulate). I am trying a 8 week cycle with flat bench press as my chest exercise. As expected, at the end of weeks I am tootally drained and has a hit a plateu. Can I push through my plateu by changing the exercise to incline or decline press?
My stance is there is both peripheral and systematic fatigue. By changing exercises, I am assumning the pripheral fatgue is drained off to a certain extent. In real life, often we see how somebody'e incline goes up while his flat stays the same and EMG studies have noted how IEMG increases are specific to the heads, atleast in the quads.
Anoop
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 11, 2005 4:02:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Anoop-
I think if there was a clear answer to your question about improving your bench press, there would not be such variation in techniques.
Strength and conditioning, like medicine, is as much an art as it is a science.
Individual differences are difficult to account for also.
Following a periodization type approach (which it seems you are doing) seems to hold the most promise.
Otherwise, we are just exchanging opinions...which isn't bad, but we should acknowledge that's what they are.
Try some things and see what works for you...
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 11, 2005 9:35:00 AM
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anoopbal
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I am not sure if you guys are aware, but this question is quite strongly debated in other forums.
Will chaninign exercise reduce the CNS fatigue? This seems to be the basis of changing exercises every week or 2 weeks in WSB system; atleast they argue that this is what helps them train all out each and every week without getting fatigued.
I aksed this question in this forum since I assumed you guys would know about muscular and CNS fatigue than the people on other boards.
I am interested to bring up my bench, but I am more passionate to know how things work.
Thanks
Anoop
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 12, 2005 5:50:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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How do we measure "CNS Fatigue"?
What specific neurophysiological process are you asking about?
Certainly, trainers and strength coaches can theorize that this is an aspect of why improvements occur, but this is purely theoretical at this point.
The term "CNS Fatigue" is neither medical nor physiological, and therefore seems to be a sort of general term for a kind of adaptive or maladaptive process happening neuromuscularly.
The reason this is strongly debated is that there is no clear answer for this, and those who debate it in fitness or strength forums usually do not understand physiology or research design enough to comprehend the difference betweeen discussing theories of complex neuromuscular adapations and asking a specific research question that has a clear answer.
I'm not saying you are doing that, I'm just expressing what I've seen other places.
You ask good questions, anoop. Intelligent questions. It's unfortunate that there are not clear answers for them. There are theories, and relative effectiveness proven with different strength protocols to different degrees, but to my knowledge that is as far as it goes.
Program design is as much an art as it is a science.
I do recommend you check out the National Strength and Conditioning Association's forums, and perhaps ask there.
There are sport scientists and exercise physiology PhDs there that know much more than I do about that sort of thing. They may be able to give you more definitive answers.
You want to "know how things work". That's great, we all do. But I don't think anyone does, at least at this point in history.
:)
Good luck.
Jason.
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 12, 2005 3:27:00 PM
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anoopbal
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Though reaserches are scant and recent, there is pretty good evidence to back up the phenomena of CNS fatigue. The evidence points both peripheral and central factotrs to be involved. Recently brain serotonin levels has been shown to have a mojor influenec on CNS fatigue.
But I agree whole heartedly that most use the term without a basic grasp of the phenomeneon or the complexity involved.I even wrote in artilcle how the nervous sytem adaptations and mladaptions are blown out of proportion in the strength industry.
I have just glanced the NSCA forum. Couldnt post anything bcos I got to have a membership. Thanks anyway.
Anoop
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 12, 2005 4:48:00 PM
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karmzack
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Anoop,
I am by no means an expert on CNS fatigue. However, I've found some links that might interest you.
Here is an excerpt from an article; I like it because it lists the references. It touches very briefly on the topic you originally inquired about.
"You’ve heard of people talking about “overtraining” the CNS? This is your boy right here. While there appears to be some benefit to switching up the exercises, as recommended by Westside for example, this may be because the body hasn’t accommodated to the movement, and a period of lowered intensity is necessarily brought about. A period of lowered intensity is a necessity after periods of high-intensity work, and it’s not all for muscular reasons. The mind needs a break as well, which is why one of the most common indicators of overtraining is lack of motivation to exercise."
After reading the article you can draw your own conclusions.
Here is the link, if it dosen't work e-mail me.
http://www.beyondmass.com/forums/showthread/t-9443.html
There is a lot of research out there on CNS (central) fatigue from a physiological point of view. Just do a Pubmed search or go to scholar.google.com and type in CNS fatigue. You'll be reading journal articles for weeks.
This one looks like the grand daddy of them all. I have the full text if interested.
Gandevia SC. Spinal and supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue.
Physiol Rev. 2001 Oct;81(4):1725-89. Review.
PMID: 11581501 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 12, 2005 5:01:00 PM
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karmzack
Posts: 181
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From: Hawaii
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Anoop,
I guess I hadn't refreshed my browser for a while because our posts crossed paths. I wholeheartedly agree with your last comments, but I don't think the concept is that new.
Research on CNS fatigue appeared to start in 1904 when Mosso attempted to compare fatigue in voluntary and electrically induced contractions, and to measure central fatigue using a variety of techniques. The Gandevia article gives "a list of conceptual and technical advances that are relevant to the contributions of the central nervous system to human muscle fatigue".
Happy reading :)
_____________________________
Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 12, 2005 6:20:00 PM
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anoopbal
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Thanks Zack for the studies.
I have looked at review you quoted. To be frank, gave me one heck of a headache. :D
I have read that article. It was published in Avantlabs. He writes in one of the forums I write. I think the comment he made about the motivation deserves some credit. Heard the same from some of the succesful WSB lifters. All been said, Dave Tate ( one of the WSB greats) reccomends to take a day off or perform a reduced loading week. Perhaps to dissipate the fatigue which never went away by changing exrcises.
I was more inetersted to know about the peripheral component of fatigue, which hasnt been studies to much exetent.
Anyway, thanks for all the input.
Anoop
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Re: Changing Exercises - May 12, 2005 6:27:00 PM
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anoopbal
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Justin,
I came across one of the posts by Loren in the NSCA foruma bout overreaching and fatigue. He talks about how post activation potentiation countters low frequency fatigue and how near maximal squats can be used to counter LFF, thereby by allowoing the athlete to perform power exercises during the session.
Dint quite understand the concept. Could you elaborate if possible
https://www.nsca-lift.org/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=773&PN=1
Anoop
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