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Arkansas case
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Arkansas case - August 7, 2005 11:06:00 AM
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dosrinc
Posts: 335
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From: Bonita Springs
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Anyone see the Teston vs. Arkansas board of chiro's article in the latest issue of Advance. It is a good read for those who haven't followed the case to catch up with. Interestingly, one of the patients who brought the charges in the first place has now filed a malpractice suit against Teston. In the article he gives an excerpt of the legal brief that this patients lawyer had submitted in the case. In the brief the lawyer states that PT's are to Chiro's as paralegals are to lawyers. If this weren't actually happening it would be laughable.
Rick
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Re: Arkansas case - August 7, 2005 11:19:00 AM
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Synergy
Posts: 592
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From: Texas
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How disgusting! I just read the article and immediately vomited. Here's the link if anyone else in interested.
[URL=http://physical-therapy.advanceweb.com/common/EditorialSearch/AViewer.aspx?AN=PT_05aug1_ptp68.html&AD=08-01-2005]Advance-Vol.16 •Issue 17 • Page 68[/URL]
_____________________________
Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: Arkansas case - August 7, 2005 12:15:00 PM
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jma
Posts: 2414
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From: NY
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And now arother round begins? Disappointing.
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Re: Arkansas case - August 7, 2005 3:35:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
Joined: May 9, 2005
From: Kansas
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Physical Therapy is really getting banged up on this one. Not good. Not good.
Mark
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Re: Arkansas case - August 7, 2005 3:50:00 PM
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lynx
Posts: 29
Joined: March 21, 2005
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It is incredibly hypocritical that 2/3 of chiropractors disavow diagnosis (the proportion attending straight subluxation based schools) so they can overutilize manipulation but then they turn around and state that they are more qualified than PTs who respect diagnosis and generally have patients pre screened by primary care providers. This is bull****.
>Claiming that a chiropractor simply does not know the profession of physical therapy and its standards would be like claiming that a lawyer does not know the profession of and standards relating to a paralegal."
This is totally false. Read their standards (the Council on Chiropractic Education http://www.cce-usa.org/). While diagnosis is mandatory, they allow it to be excluded from student's clinical experience-teaching them to practice overutilization. Look at how many chiropractic schools allow students to treat children years before having a course in pediatric diagnosis. There is no integration of real diagnosis in most of their schools. Ditto geriatrics and ob/gyn. And physical therapy is completely optional. While most chiropractors learn how to use modalities many get no training in active rehabilitation and are totally unqualified in physical therapy. In reality, at best chiropractic training is just above a PT assistant and below an advanced registered nurse. For most however it really is more of a cross between an RN and the mob-basically legalized patient abuse.
The fact that PTs have finally stopped thinking of chiropractors as colleagues and are starting to see the damage they do is a very good sign. The next step will be to challenge them in court so that their false advertising and outdated theories are exposed as the dung they are. It may even be time to challenge the chiropractic statutes themselves as being false and revoke their right to harm the public by condoning subluxation theory as legitimate dignosis.
Chiropractors are the mobsters of healthcare, not the experts in manipulation that they want everyone to think they are. Their leaders lie to chiropractic students, and their own chiropractors. They perpetuate debunked theories. They promote overutilization at the expense of patient safety and strokes.
And forget about free speech. Anyone who criticizes their abusive practices is banned from their forums.
However their only chance is if PTs give up. With the advancement of DPT training, hopefully this won't ever happen.
But we are witnessing the last screech of the chiropractic dinosaur. People have fled the beast in droves. Even some chiropractors themselves when they realize how dirty the fundamental practices are. Anyway, the chiropractic niche is false so they have nothing to evolve into. This leaves them to continue their same old false tactics-false advertising, quackery, and now trying to maintain an unfair legislative monopoly on manipulation.
But then again, perhaps this is a moot point since the research shows that mobilization is safer and just as effective than manipulation for most patients.
Remember, truth always wins.
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 2:33:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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From: USA
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Lynx-
While we have it on our side, truth is not holding up her end of the deal so far.
We'll see how this goes...
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 5:43:00 AM
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jma
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From: NY
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Good points Lynx.
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 5:58:00 AM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Oh my gosh Lynx, I feel/smell some fresh air coming in from somewhere. Thank you for opening the window!
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 6:08:00 AM
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dosrinc
Posts: 335
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From: Bonita Springs
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When I read the brief from the lawyer my first thought was of dropping a chiro off at an inpt. rehab center, a nursing home, at the home of a post total hip pt., in a pediatric ICU, the med-surg floor of a hospital or in any of the other varied and numerous places that PT's call home and see how they fare. I would think that the lawyer would end up suing someone else for malpractice, yet his brief suggests that chiro's would be able to handle each of these situations with ease. Unbelievable
Rick
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 6:09:00 AM
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KIDPT23
Posts: 222
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From: Illinois
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Chiros in my area are very successful in that they are very busy, have long term clients who are paying cash a year up front, and they have hired on P.T.'s to take over the rehab field and paying them very good money because they can(they get excellent reimbursement). Plus Medicare has given them this new trial project where they have prospered as well. Seems to me they are not that concerned about being extinct any time soon, matter of fact, it seems they are getting stronger. We have to stop whining and step it up. They are very familiar throughout the community. Everyone knows what a chiropractor is and what they do. Not many people, unless they have been in P.T. knows what Physical Therapy is. Hmmm... maybe that is a little problem!
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 8:05:00 AM
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drbuddy
Posts: 429
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From: Pennsylvania
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Funny Kid, I guess the grass is always greener... I feel that people do not understand what I do and that the PTs have the advantage when it comes to recognition and reimbursement.
Personally, I would love to hire a PT to carry out all of my rehab and even some of the manual therapy. I'm not sure if that is possible in my state. I think that would allow more people to experience the best of both worlds.
Lynx, t
Here is one thing you guys should push for, get the lawmakers and insurance companies to allow DCs to refer to PTs. In my state, an MD has to write the script. That is a major barrier that prevents me from referring more pts to PTs. In order to refer to a PT, I need to refer back to the MD, then the pt waits two weeks to get an appt, then they MIGHT get the referral.
Lynx, truth may always win, so you might want to include some in your post. The 2/3 figure is made up based on the wonderfully biased AB. The rest of your post is an opinon. Be careful of AB's discussion site. Quoting him makes you sound just as ignorant.
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 8:25:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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I
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 8:29:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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From: USA
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Wonderfully erudite post, eh?
Buddy-
I'm sure AB might be biased, but that doesn't make him wrong.
He's got an interesting take on things, and backs up what he says with some evidence, which is nice in this day and age.
I'm sure if there were a similar site decrying PTs use of hotpacks/Ultrasound/massage, then we might feel the way about that person the way you guys feel about AB.
But I don't think anything I've read from him applies to quality DCs like you and the other people who post here.
I really hope the current fighting between our professions will come to a halt and let each of us spend our money and time where it is needed more.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 9:31:00 AM
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drbuddy
Posts: 429
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From: Pennsylvania
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Well, it might not make him wrong all of the time, but he does tend to selectively use the literature to support his views and use misquotes/take things out of context.
At one time I didnt mind him too much because he does make some good points. He also tends to hold chiros at a higher standard than other professions.
He also has no concept of evidenced based medicine. From conversation with him, it seems like he thinks we should only practice based 100% on the literature. For those of you that actually see patients, you know that research has its limitations and that you need to have a good mix of knowledge of the human body, practical experience, and knowledge of the best current literature.
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 12:46:00 PM
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OAK
Posts: 184
Joined: September 1, 2003
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"Chiros in my area are very successful in that they are very busy, have long term clients who are paying cash a year up front, and they have hired on P.T.'s to take over the rehab field and paying them very good money because they can(they get excellent reimbursement). Plus Medicare has given them this new trial project where they have prospered as well. Seems to me they are not that concerned about being extinct any time soon, matter of fact, it seems they are getting stronger. We have to stop whining and step it up. They are very familiar throughout the community. Everyone knows what a chiropractor is and what they do. Not many people, unless they have been in P.T. knows what Physical Therapy is. Hmmm... maybe that is a little problem!"
Something is VERY wrong if there are "long term" Chiropractic patients paying cash for treatment a year in advance. This is NOT a sign of success. As long as this garbage keeps happening the profession will never move forward.
Do chiropractors enjoy treating these patients day after day without any hope for recovery? Good for the pocket book but does it provide any job satisfaction? Just curious?
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Re: Arkansas case - August 8, 2005 3:54:00 PM
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lynx
Posts: 29
Joined: March 21, 2005
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Well the truth wins but only if it is skillfully and forcefully applied-in this case in the legislature and courts. Otherwise it is easily hidden.
>The 2/3 figure is made up based on the wonderfully biased AB.
Actually it comes from the Life University v. CCE lawsuit where Life argued that CCE was being unfair in demanding differential diagnosis when 2/3 of chiropractors come from straight programs-the straight programs constituting 1/2 of the schools. Your statement that he made it up is not true-he provided a quote to the news story right on chirotalk. I found it within about 30 seconds of searching the site:
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=all&thread=1115601534&page=1
Anyone familiar with chiropractic schools will recognize that it is perfectly reasonable and not biased in the least.
AB readily admits that he suffers from the flaws common the straight chiropractic colleges, de-emphasized diagnosis and research, and despite these handicaps and out of a total spirit of self service, he manages to present evidence that supports his arguments. However, I don't agree with you that he is biased. There have been numerous times when he has admitted making a mistake, and his forum readily supports chiropractors who have research that supports their methods, such as Graston Technique.
So just because you don't like his stance, don't call him biased. He has a lot of energy and some very good instincts and has done a lot to help expose the dangers and abuses of chiropractic to PTs. Fortunately, PTs like Jason and Diane are running with the ball and inspiring others to stand up and make a difference-and have shown that the research does in fact usually support AB's positions.
But enough about him, back to the topic.
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Re: Arkansas case - August 9, 2005 3:05:00 AM
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KIDPT23
Posts: 222
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From: Illinois
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Back to the patients paying a year in advance. They get once a week adjustments and receive coupons or discounts on any specialty services(massage,decompression therapy,light therapy,etc..) throughout the year. I have actually had patients who had been to these chiros and they had nothing but good things to say. We were treating for post-op knees and they all had been there for lumbar issues. They said that they will continue going for their backs. One of the patients stated that the chiro group was also hiring on ATC's who had their personal training certification and starting a personal training program on premises as well. Do I agree with the chiro approach?? No, but I will not sit here and spend all my time ripping on them. I will learn from their mistakes and from what is working for them. I will focus on what I do best and it will reflect in the way my patients will get better. Do we really think that if we go out there into the community and put down the chiropractic field, that patients will just stop going to them and go to us, NO!!! We have to stop whining and crying about what the chiros are doing and just focus on our professions problems.
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Re: Arkansas case - August 9, 2005 5:30:00 AM
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dosrinc
Posts: 335
Joined: December 9, 2004
From: Bonita Springs
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KIDPT23,
I have tried to stay away from these discussions, I really have. I would much rather be talking about something clinical. The problem is that when you read an article like the one referenced above you come to the realization that the Chiro's in Arkansas are attempting to utilize their political clout to legislate PT's out of the spine care business. Did you read the Teston qoute that stated he was approached by a member of the Arkansas Chiro Board who stated that traction was next on their agenda, "because traction involves realignment of the spinal vertebra, only chiro's should do traction". Are you ready to give up spine care? I know I am not. Do you think if they win in Arkansas they will stop there? I do not. You state that the chiro's are very strong in Illinois, do you think it is smart to bury your head in the sand and ignore what the chiro profession is trying to do? I do not, that is why I post here and attempt to educate as many PT's on the issues as I can.
Thanks,
Rick
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Re: Arkansas case - August 9, 2005 7:45:00 AM
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OAK
Posts: 184
Joined: September 1, 2003
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"Back to the patients paying a year in advance. They get once a week adjustments and receive coupons or discounts on any specialty services(massage,decompression therapy,light therapy,etc..) throughout the year. I have actually had patients who had been to these chiros and they had nothing but good things to say."
Chiropraters are pulling a con job on these patients and this needs to be exposed. Smiling and looking the other way is not the solution. We need to defend our profession and educate that a lifetime dosage of chiropratic is NOT the solution for chronic pain!
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Re: Arkansas case - August 9, 2005 8:02:00 AM
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KIDPT23
Posts: 222
Joined: May 20, 2002
From: Illinois
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Rick-Exactly what I am saying! We need to focus on the issues that will help keep are treatment abilities and also further them, not verbally abusing the individual chiros.
Oak-Yes, we have to educate the community on what we offer.Market our ability and promote our field throughout the community.
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