|
|
"Medical" Massage Therapists
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
"Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 8:55:00 AM
|
|
|
dosrinc
Posts: 335
Joined: December 9, 2004
From: Bonita Springs
Status: offline
|
Just a little something to brighten everyone's Monday:
http://www.trade-schools.net/national-school-of-technology/massage-therapist.asp
A little background: I had a colleauge fax me some info the other day. Apparently one of her patients came in and stated "My massage therpaist wants you to call her, she says my pelvis is out of allignment and wants you work on it." The PT then called the massage therapist to discuss. She asked the massage therapist what background she had to begin to evaluate spinal allignment and it's affects on pain and disability and the LMT said not to worry, she was a "Medical" massage therapist. A little research then found this web page. Please be sure to read the second to last paragraph on the page. Sounds to me like they are claiming to educate LMT's on things they are not liscensed to perform. Remember, these people have direct acess! Any thoughts?
Rick
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 9:25:00 AM
|
|
|
Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1203
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
|
I thought they're allowed to assess and treat...
At least here they do that: a local guy sends me patients with "I think the SI is "out", can you check and treat?". He took osteopathic courses.
There is no such thing as "medical" massage therapist here: they are RMT (Registered Massage Therapist - similar to U.S. LMT) with their regulatory college. Nowadays they do joint mobs, prescribe stretches and exercises - all in their curriculum - and give nutritional advise.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 9:56:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
I carry a recent blurb from Time Magazine around on my travels indicating that 12% of adults in the US got a massage last year-27% of those for “pain” and another 12% for “sports injuries” which I assume are painful. That’s a whole lot of people any way you want to look at it (I find the math confusing). The PT community has “lost” these patients to a group whose training seems to be remarkably inconsistent state to state and often includes many practices which are questionable to say the least. Read a few issues of “Massage” magazine in the book store and you’ll see what I mean.
In any case, they are seeing the same patients we are and the numbers probably aren’t going to change in the direction we might prefer. What can we do to help protect the public and our turf? I don’t think this is a question easily answered.
Here’s an alternative. Isn’t “therapy” that which endures, emerges from the patient much more so than the therapist and also something that can be closely approximated by the patient independently? By this definition (admittedly, my own), is massage therapeutic?
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 12:36:00 PM
|
|
|
karmzack
Posts: 181
Joined: March 20, 2005
From: Hawaii
Status: offline
|
Looks like this turf war is going to get heated.
Here are two more links for more info.
http://www.amtamassage.org/news/042205defined.html
They are getting ready to come out with state practice acts specific to medical massage. I hope the APTA is watching this.
http://www.medicalmassagecharleston.com/
Here is a medical massage clinic example. They sound like miracle workers. I'm glad they mentioned that physical therapists are available if the clients condition requires further expertise, along with orthopedic physicians and a Chiropractor Kinesiologists.
_____________________________
Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 2:09:00 PM
|
|
|
dosrinc
Posts: 335
Joined: December 9, 2004
From: Bonita Springs
Status: offline
|
Zack,
The charleston clinic ad says that the massage therapists there specialize in "physical medicine therapy" excuse me but WTF is that, I have steam coming out of my ears, how can a profession just make stuff up like that, please someone in the know make sure this stuff gets passed on to the right people at the APTA. BTW the last massage therpist I went to told me my hamstrings were really tight as she worked on the front of my thigh. AAARRRGH!
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 3:06:00 PM
|
|
|
jma
Posts: 2414
Joined: August 24, 2000
From: NY
Status: offline
|
Another problem to add to the list
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 4:08:00 PM
|
|
|
karmzack
Posts: 181
Joined: March 20, 2005
From: Hawaii
Status: offline
|
Rick, It's worse that you think, look through this website
http://www.americanmedicalmassage.com/
This is the American Medical Massage Association AKA the American Manual Medicine Association.
My prediction (based only on my gut feeling) is that the medical massage therapists will change their title to manual medicine therapists to separate themselves from some of the stigma around massage. Again I am making this up based off of what I've read from the site.
Here are two of their teaching manuals
Volume Two, General Rehabilitation Protocols, is a detailed review of medical manual therapy treatment techniques and patient case management programs that is organized joint by joint, body part by body part. This treatment review includes medical massage, manual therapy, acupuncture, therapeutic exercise, therapeutic modalities, clinical nutrition and herbal treatment protocols.
Volume Three, Therapeutic Modalities, reviews the use of adjunctive therapeutic modalities such as heat, cold, soft tissue laser, electro therapies, and herbal medicine for the medical massage and manual therapist.
Looks a lot like physical therapy except for the herbal medicine. They are in much better shape than us in the direct access / insurance reimbursement arena.
Look on the site under education : approved techniques, you will see mobilization. It's only a matter of time before you see manipulation. Then the chiros will get involved.
They also started a peer reviewed journal - good move for them, bad for us, they are looking more like a bona fide allied health profession parallel to ours, except they have more autonomy.
I can't find what degree is required to be a MMT though.
_____________________________
Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 5:00:00 PM
|
|
|
karmzack
Posts: 181
Joined: March 20, 2005
From: Hawaii
Status: offline
|
Here is an insightful article on orthopedic vs medical massage. The author makes very good points (In the PTs favor).
http://www.massagetoday.com/archives/2004/02/03.html
_____________________________
Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 5:05:00 PM
|
|
|
Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
|
Yikes.
Get busy, PTs, get direct access ASAP. And don't leave out getting good with using your hands for assessing/treating.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 16, 2005 5:52:00 PM
|
|
|
Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1242
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
Status: offline
|
WTF is "medical" massage? I have seen some TV adds for "medical" massage schools. Just sounds stupid to me. But if they give out "happy endings" then they can call themselves whatever they want ;)
OK joking, this is a serious thread.
I hate them too.
_____________________________
Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 2:50:00 AM
|
|
|
JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
|
Wags-
Any idea what the AMA or state medical associations think about this stuff?
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 3:18:00 AM
|
|
|
JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
|
I think this sounds like more competition.
That's good, it forces us to continue to improve.
Seems strange that these people can use the terms "medical" and have direct access and claim to be doing rehabilitation, when it seems from reading their sites you can obtain "certification" in about 300-500 hours.
It seems the best way in some states to get true autonomy might be to go to massage school. Silly, isn't it?
This is yet another example of a profession pushing for "licensure" which legitimizes in the eyes of the public a personal service and cloaks it the guise of providing medical care.
Ridiculous.
The best group to step up here (other than us, of course) should be the state medical associations or the AMA, who traditionally have guarded the path quite strongly.
I'm sure the APTA is already on this, but I sent them an email as well...
J
I wonder if this is on their radar screen...
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 3:54:00 AM
|
|
|
dosrinc
Posts: 335
Joined: December 9, 2004
From: Bonita Springs
Status: offline
|
Jason,
Might the AMA see this as a way to replace PT in office in those states ie SC that have restricted PT's from working in physician's offices, I worry that the AMA may not be on our side on this one.
Rick
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 5:22:00 AM
|
|
|
Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
Status: offline
|
This is one of the problems I was wondering about when discussing the push for the DPT and more "professional recognition" for PT's. There is a need for this type of treatment and a desire for this type of treatment. How many PT's have had a pt. come in and say they just wanted massage and a hot pack and they refused them. My wife was just telling me she did this yesterday.
I do have some problems with the claims they make, but supplement companies make the same claims with less evidence. I think it is probably illegal to use the term "physical medicine therapy". There are legitimate safety issues also, but isn't this the same argument that MD's use against PT. Aren't the MT's where the PT's were 60 or 70 years ago?
If there is a market, someone will fill it.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 5:24:00 AM
|
|
|
Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
Status: offline
|
Oh, one more thing, how many PT's go to massage therapists? A lot them.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 7:26:00 AM
|
|
|
JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
|
Rick-
Good point. Since money is a big factor for them, they might just give up on referring to PTs and find another profession they can make money on to have as in-office rehabilitation. Like....athletic trainers. Or MTs...
Randy, good point. Perhaps the MTs are where we were years ago.
But they have more privileges now at this current state in their evolution than we have ever had at any point in time. That's a big part of the issue.
PTs have a documented safety record with seeing people for all kinds of medical problems off the street without malpractice or negligence issues. I wonder if one can say the same about MTs, if they start offering medical treatment for people in pain.
I don't blame your wife for refusing the patient a hot pack and a massage. That is a personal service, not medical care. As long as massage therapists see themselves as truly providing a personal service (which they do, it's why people including PTs go to them) there's no problem. It's when they start seeing someone for a painful problem or issue and start diagnosing and treating people themselves with 300-500 hours of training that problems come up.
Surely we can see how ridiculous and dangerous this is...
PTs are trained in the medical model and get real experince evaluating and treating real people who are really sick. They learn to collaborate with other providers and learn about the spectrum of illness and symptoms that can present. They have hospital rotations, basic science and clinical science courses, etc etc.
These "therapists" who do massage are merely practicing muscle rubs on their classmates for 300 hours!
Now, massage feels good, and I've no wish to deny anyone the right to make a living, but when the state "licenses" some group whose job is not a threat to public health, then that makes that group legitimate in the eyes of the public.
The state wins by getting more money, the group wins by charging more for service and marketing more. The consumer loses by being further confused about who can treat what and where to go for appropriate medical care.
What next, shall we license nail salons and let them evaluate and start diagnosing and treating people's hand problems??
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 7:41:00 AM
|
|
|
pwrandall
Posts: 66
Joined: May 14, 2004
From: Elk Grove, CA
Status: offline
|
Isn't there some reasonable evidence out there that massage is moderately effective for many painful medical conditions? If so, aren't we the most logical providers for this type of care? I think that we have really dropped the ball in this area. On two occasions at the private practice I work in we have had a DO refer patients to us for "Massage" or soft-tissue mobilization that we were reluctant to treat as prescribed. One of those patients we lost, presumably to a LMT. With the other one I performed an evaluation, determined that some soft-tissue work was not inappropriate and incorporated it into my treatment plan. The patient was happy, the doctor was happy, and I was satisfied that the treatment was appropriate. How do other people handle these cases?
PETE
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 8:00:00 AM
|
|
|
Shill
Posts: 1096
Joined: February 13, 2003
From: Madison WI USA
Status: offline
|
Hey Jason, just so ya know, here's a little reality check, but comic relief at the same time.
The people who cut my hair are licensed. I think it is a cosmetology license. I can say that I was actually surprised to see this framed on the wall. Id hate to think of what might happen to my hair if some unlicensed person started hacking away up there. I mean, I guess I COULD lose an ear or something. Perhaps the test for licensing is "Have you ever cut off an ear? Circle yes or no.
I used to cut my own hair. Does that mean I was practicing cosmetology without a license? Shhh, lets keep this to ourselves.
Licenses are not only a means of public protection, but I also agree that they are means by which states make money. I think these should be separated in the eyes of the public, simply by the chaning the spelling of the word license. For non-protective, money making purposes, it should be spelled "Licen$e"
_____________________________
Steve Hill PT
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 9:48:00 AM
|
|
|
karmzack
Posts: 181
Joined: March 20, 2005
From: Hawaii
Status: offline
|
I think that insurance companies see "medical" massage as a medical treatment, not just a personal service. This is where PTs run into trouble. The Charleston massage clinic (cited earlier) is promoting their $10 massage to worker's comp and auto accident patients. (BTW, they are called "patients" in the massage clinic). The massage therapists run into the same problem as we do with insurance reimbursement - a referral from an MD is required. Now the patient has a choice, they can go to a PT or a MT for the same co-payment. Now it comes down to public perception of PT and MT. They watch "Seinfeld" and see that PTs also give massages, but they have also heard that PT is "painful" from their friends that had knee or shoulder surgery. They can choose to go to a MT and get a massage like at the spa they go to, but they don't have to pay for it. Never mind that massage is a short term fix. The patient wants to feel better NOW not in 6 weeks after completing an exercise program. Of course we as PTs know the advantages of physical therapy, but that won’t get us anywhere if the public is in the dark on what we do. PT marketing is critical to the survival of our profession. We need to educate the public on what we really do and how we can be more effective than MT and Chiro in providing quality care for our patients. I’d like to think we are one big happy healthcare family, but it is a competition (unless insurance is willing to reimburse for 3 services for the same condition).
_____________________________
Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
|
|
|
|
|
Re: "Medical" Massage Therapists - May 17, 2005 10:34:00 AM
|
|
|
Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
Posts: 1057
Joined: February 29, 2004
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
|
Zack,
You put this into a nice perspective. Nice but scary. Yikes.
_____________________________
Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
0.094
|
Printable Version
All Forums >> [RehabEdge Forum] >> Open Forum >> "Medical" Massage Therapists 
